What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[JLB]

Then why do you insist the sin is still there?

Sin remains in our mortal body, and will continue until we die and are given a resurrection body that will never die.


Since we know that our spirit is born again of the Spirit and our flesh is born of flesh it becomes obvious to those who can read, that the Spirit does not give birth to flesh.

As Paul plainly says to born again, baptized Christians --

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Sin remains in our mortal body, and will continue until we die and are given a resurrection body that will never die.

I'ld hate to be the one refuting the attributes of the new creature of a Spiritual rebirth from God's seed.

Since we know that our spirit is born again of the Spirit and our flesh is born of flesh it becomes obvious to those who can read, that the Spirit does not give birth to flesh.

The new creature is reborn of God's seed, thus, Spiritually.
God is Spirit and must be worshipped in Spirit and truth.
How can the fleshly accomplish that?

As Paul plainly says to born again, baptized Christians --
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Right, keep sin out and it won't kill you a second time.
I am rejoicing right now for Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No flesh, no vile affections, and no lusts.
Quite the opposite of what you post.

 

[Runmyramble]

Hopeful believes that a person, their physical body “literally dies” when they go under the water, in which their physical body is born again sinless.

This is the foundation of the “sinless perfection” doctrinal belief system.


The emphasis is placed on the natural water of baptism rather than the blood Jesus Christ shed for us, and the Holy Spirit by which we are empowered to live in dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh.


Hopeful further believes that is a Christian ever commits one sin in there entire life, they were never really saved in the first place.


He views the following scriptures as pertaining to unsaved people —


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


When confronted with the obvious “we” and “our“ pronouns, which John included himself in his statement, Hopeful dismisses this as pertaining to sinners; the unsaved.


Then when we expand the context to include the surrounding verses…


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1:8-2:2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The Christian and the world finds forgiveness in the blood of Jesus.


Here we have the unmistakable, irrefutable doctrinal statement from John that if a Christian should sin, then they can indeed confess their sin, and be forgiven.


The danger of the “sinless perfection” doctrine lies in the fact that if a person does sin, they believe they were never really saved, and eventually they just give up.

Also, they see no need in the daily “take up your cross” command, which involves being filled with the Spirit and walking according to the the Spirit, so that we don’t fall into the trap of…so that you do not do the things that you wish.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Note the very distinct difference in what scripture teaches and what Hopeful teaches.


Scripture —

Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


Hopeful —

Walk in the Spirit get water baptized and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.




JLB

Well I don't know what to say...I looked at some of those scriptures that way myself

I do not know for sure what this passage has to do with it... but it does say may your whole body, soul, and Spirit be preserved the day of the Lord.

There is one baptism.....and just maybe that means we are all under the Christ...by way of the Trinity

We have a body soul and Spirit and I do wonder how the Trinity plays a part in preserving each one?

If you are reborn of God's perfect seed, how can you be made more pure?

Is there a reason you asked me that?

 

[Runmyramble]

Sin remains in our mortal body, and will continue until we die and are given a resurrection body that will never die.

Hi, I have a hard time with this... Some of the ideals you both pose, I really never thought to think on.

But if we go back to the garden ...maybe there's a chance we can find what really happen. What God created was not bad.

but what He created was meant to be in relation to Him...

For example: there is a tree on the right side practically growing side by side with our house...but the longer branches are curved as it grew closer out the shadow of the house and it's upper body reaches toward the energy the sun gives. I figure 2 important things happened -As the tree grew it's roots got deeper in the ground sustaining it.

I rambled that to say that it's our positioning.........right?

Spirit >to our spirit> to fleshed-our natural ability.

that seems like the alignment it should be....but Instead we try to do things with our flesh-natural ability ..which comes along with our desires, our wants, and our motives. Yet, that is not what we were designed for. We are sustained by life from God not life from our flesh.

So I can't say there's something apparently evil about the flesh. However when it's out of alignment with God's will then that seems to be the issue.

So if we are in the flesh(what we do in our natural ability (w/o God) we cant please God. We have to relate to Him with our spirit.

That seems to be what Paul was talking about...And there under the Law He sought to keep it based on His natural ability. So When He would do good what also came along?(his desires, motives, wants)

QUESTION? Could Jesus ever sin? And I say, while the opportunity was there, that was not His nature.

Since we know that our spirit is born again of the Spirit and our flesh is born of flesh it becomes obvious to those who can read, that the Spirit does not give birth to flesh.

Think about it this way...We will have a glorified body right? On the other aside-
Therefore if that is what it will be then how is that simulated on this side?

Walking by the Spirit(walk-keeping in step with) why because you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Focus on what gives life and is Life..etc

As Paul plainly says to born again, baptized Christians --

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Good passage, but how does sin reign..when we try to do things in our own power(by the flesh-man's natural ability w/o God

Well I don't know what

 

[JLB]

What God created was not bad.

What God created was good.

What Adam and Eve procreated contained sin, since they disobeyed God. They became contaminated with sin and spread sin to all mankind.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12

• through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin and thus death spread to all men.

JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

If you are reborn of God's perfect seed, how can you be made more pure?

I would not say [pure] but if you put the question to me...and it's not rhetorical this would be my answer.

A seed must grow into what it is purposed to be...

A new born in cases may not live..or even always thrive if it doesn't get it's needs met. So that means everything does not always move in the direction of it's dna. For life may be cut short for many.

However a seed has to grow up...into the full character of Christ. (grow in grace...)

Because when you are a child you act like a child but when you become grown you should not still be acting childish.

Life is embedded in our transformation which produces character; like (the full measure of a man)

 

[JLB]

I'ld hate to be the one refuting the attributes of the new creature of a Spiritual rebirth from God's seed.

All you have is just comments and opinions with no scripture.

You comments and opinions will never explain away the truth of scripture.

Here Paul is contextually speaking to water baptized Christians in Rome, and advises them about the sin in their mortal body, and how to not let the sin in their mortal body gain control over them again.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


That‘s just it, the new birth involves our spirit, not our flesh.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh
• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Until you can provide a scripture that says that which is born of the Spirit is flesh, your “doctrine” will continue to be unscriptural.


Our physical body contains sin. We have been given the Spirit of the living God to dwell in our spirit, to provide the enabling power to live in freedom over the sin that dwells in our flesh… if we choose to walk in the Spirit, and not walk after the flesh; to obey its sinful desires.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Investing our time and energy towards the things of the Spirit, is what followers of Jesus Christ are called to do.


Involving ourselves in the things of the world only leads to death and eternal destruction.


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15



JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

What God created was good.

What Adam and Eve procreated contained sin, since they disobeyed God. They became contaminated with sin and spread sin to all mankind.

This will be a good study...
I'm merely going to give my thoughts based on what I think I know...So hopefully I do not quote scrip wrong...
And as always I could be wrong..and may be in the need for correction
.......
The payment for sin is death-seperation from God.

And what is sin.....? >Anything that is not from faith

So from that perspective how did sin enter the world...
Why did death reign? Possible answer: They were dead(seperated from God) ...and were not quickened to be made alive....by the power of the word.

For Jesus became a quickening Spirit...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12

• through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin and thus death spread to all men.

JLB

 

[JLB]

but how does sin reign

It reigns over us when we obey it. We return to being its slave.

Our master is the one we obey.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:13-14


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16

• whether of sin leading to death,
• or of obedience leading to righteousness?

JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

All you have is just comments and opinions with no scripture.

You comments and opinions will never explain away the truth of scripture.

Here Paul is contextually speaking to water baptized Christians in Rome, and advises them about the sin in their mortal body, and how to not let the sin in their mortal body gain control over them again.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


That‘s just it, the new birth involves our spirit, not our flesh.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh
• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Until you can provide a scripture that says that which is born of the Spirit is flesh, your “doctrine” will continue to be unscriptural.


Our physical body contains sin.

I don't think its inherently evil...for before the fall adam and eve had a body...but flesh to me is not talking about the body..but what man can do in their natural ability...and they chose to heed to the spirit(words) of Satan that....caused the switch arew....the alignment in How God related to them.

We have been given the Spirit of the living God to dwell in our spirit, to provide the enabling power to live in freedom over the sin that dwells in our flesh… if we choose to walk in the Spirit, and not walk after the flesh; to obey its sinful desires.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Investing our time and energy towards the things of the Spirit, is what followers of Jesus Christ are called to do.


Involving ourselves in the things of the world only leads to death and eternal destruction.


Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15



JLB

 

[JLB]

And what is sin.....? >Anything that is not from faith

IOW’s disobedience to God.


Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4


Your is is good. Anything not of faith.


Faith is simply hearing God speak to us and doing what He says.

Faith comes by hearing God; hearing His word.

Faith is activated when we obey.

This is the law of faith; the principle by which faith operates.


So, if the Spirit within us is leading us, inspiring us, moving upon us to do a certain thing, and we choose to obey our flesh, and what our flesh wants to do, then we are not operating in faith; the law of faith.

Of course, like you said, this is a process; a process of learning…




JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think its inherently evil...for before the fall adam and eve had a body...but flesh to me is not talking about the body..but what man can do in their natural ability...and they chose to heed to the spirit(words) of Satan that....caused the switch arew....the alignment in with How God related to them.

Surely you agree that in our mortal body refers to our physical body?


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12


Our course doing things in the flesh can certainly refer to our own strength, however in this particular thread, we are discussing sin in our flesh, and refuting the idea that our physical body is born again.

If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:16-23



JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

Surely you agree that in our mortal body refers to our physical body?

...I'm learning through putting out there what I think I know...and being corrected..
Sadly many can't learn on the forums because they are quick to get attacked when they do what I do..then they try everything to hold up their arguments because they don't want the attacker to win the argument.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Our course doing things in the flesh can certainly refer to our own strength,

True

however in this particular thread, we are discussing sin in our flesh, and refuting the idea that our physical body is born again.

We do have habits..that have been shaped through sin...(where are habits located?)

As a matter of fact
Mmm...what is the "motions" of the flesh?..because that just came to me.

If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

You think he's talking about habits related to being under sin?

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:16-23

I see never saw that like that...till u pointed it out

JLB

 

[JLB]

We do have habits..that have been shaped through sin...(where are habits located?)

Doing. Habits refer to us doing something, whether righteous or unrighteous.

The born again Spirit filled Christian must be led in the ways or paths of righteousness.


He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake.

A path through a field or forest refers to a way that has been traveled over and over.

This refers to a habit.


He leads us into new habits or ways of righteousness.

This is referred to as sowing to the Spirit,; investing our time in being led into habits or lifestyle of righteousness.


Paul says it this way -

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:19



JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

Doing. Habits refer to us doing something, whether righteous or unrighteous.

They are in our attitude, how we are ready to respond to diff things around us, said to us, acted on us...etc Even to the way we think and are attached to our feelings, and responses.

The born again Spirit filled Christian must be led in the ways or paths of righteousness.

True dat

He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake.

Yes read that yesterday..."paths"

A path through a field or forest refers to a way that has been traveled over and over.

This refers to a habit.


He leads us into new habits or ways of righteousness.

This is true

This is referred to as sowing to the Spirit,; investing our time in being led into habits or lifestyle of righteousness.

Well amen...

Paul says it this way -

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:19



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Is there a reason you asked me that? "If you are reborn of God's perfect seed, how can you be made more pure?" (Hopeful)

In my fight against the idea that we are somehow less than perfect after our rebirth from God's perfect seed, it seemed necessary to show that things done to "get purer" after rebirth were just the unregenerated's efforts to imply that God's seed can't do the job.
It can.

 

[Hopeful]

I would not say [pure] but if you put the question to me...and it's not rhetorical this would be my answer.

So you believe God can gender impurity with His perfect seed.
I don't believe it can.
Just as apple seeds cannot gender pumpkins, neither can God's seed gender liars, adulterers, or thieves.

A seed must grow into what it is purposed to be...

It can only bear fruit after itself.

A new born in cases may not live..or even always thrive if it doesn't get it's needs met. So that means everything does not always move in the direction of it's dna. For life may be cut short for many.

That is beside the point.
No matter how long a seed lives, it will never be a different seed.
If it starts out Godly, it cannot turn unGodly.
If it starts out as an apple, it will never be a pumpkin.

However a seed has to grow up...into the full character of Christ. (grow in grace...)

And knowledge.

Because when you are a child you act like a child but when you become grown you should not still be acting childish.

And you will never be a bear.
Seed can only bring forth after itself.

Life is embedded in our transformation which produces character; like (the full measure of a man)

If the sons of Adam die, and are reborn of God's seed, they will have the character of God instead of Adam.

 

[Hopeful]

All you have is just comments and opinions with no scripture.

I have supplied a quantity of scripture you refuse to heed.

You comments and opinions will never explain away the truth of scripture.
Here Paul is contextually speaking to water baptized Christians in Rome, and advises them about the sin in their mortal body, and how to not let the sin in their mortal body gain control over them again.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Why can't you read what is printed instead of what you want it to say...which seems to be..."do not let the sin in your mortal body reign".
If you don't let sin into your mortal vessel, it won't reign.

That‘s just it, the new birth involves our spirit, not our flesh.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh
• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

Until you can provide a scripture that says that which is born of the Spirit is flesh, your “doctrine” will continue to be unscriptural.

Those reborn of the seed of God are not reborn of the flesh, but of God, who is Spirit.
Thanks be to God the old man of sin has been killed, (Rom 6:6), and replaced with a man gendered from God's seed. (1 John 3:9)
How can he be of the flesh?
He can't.

Our physical body contains sin. We have been given the Spirit of the living God to dwell in our spirit, to provide the enabling power to live in freedom over the sin that dwells in our flesh… if we choose to walk in the Spirit, and not walk after the flesh; to obey its sinful desires.

You can alleviate that by getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, which will also entail the death of the old man at its immersion into Christ's death and burial.
It will then be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Rom 6:7... "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Obey and live.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
No flesh, no vile affections, and no more lusts makes it easy to walk in the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Obey and live.
It is written..."So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." (Rom 8:8-9)

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

Amen to that.

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Investing our time and energy towards the things of the Spirit, is what followers of Jesus Christ are called to do.
Involving ourselves in the things of the world only leads to death and eternal destruction.
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

I praise God for making it possible to cast away the flesh and to start walking in the Spirit.
It is written..."For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:9-13)
Your doctrine inserts sinfulness into these verses.
Do you actually read the above like... "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, (even though your vessel has sin in it), which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:, (though it is still full of sin),
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (except the ones in your skin and bones). (Col 2:9-13)

 

[JLB]

I have supplied a quantity of scripture you refuse to heed.

You have never, not once provided a scripture that's says our flesh is born again.

That our flesh is born of the Spirit.

If the sons of Adam die, and are reborn of God's seed, they will have the character of God instead of Adam.

Where is the scripture that says our flesh, our physical body is born again?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Your doctrine inserts sinfulness into these verses.

The word of God plainly says to water baptized Christians —


Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

• do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it

Here is my question to you, Hopeful —

What is it in the mortal body of these Water Baptized Christians in the Church of Rome, that Paul is warning them not to obey?




JLB