WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa,

I'd really like you to start addressing what I or smaller have been saying. Responding to what we are saying or reacting to it with the same view over and over again is like ignoring the person. That's how I've been made to feel in this thread. You talk of grace, but I don't feel your grace.

- Davies

Well my friend, if you will look back on this thread and others?
I have spent hours of wasted time adressing the same issues over and over, that smaller has brought up again and again!
I do not intend to wastse anymore time in being lead in circles of carnal reasoning!

Now any scripture or biblical point you may have, I will be glad to take up and answer to the best of my ability.

Be sure that the enemy of the truth always has another question "did god really say" is the heart of every false teacher.
I have been in the circle, and answered every question!
When clear scripture is rejected? I can no longer offer any answers to anyone!

I will look back over your last few post, and see If I may have a response to one of your concerns?

God Bless- Mitspa

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

I take it that you are angry as you continue to use red with and exclamation point. I won't hold that against you.

Here are a few passages for you to consider regarding the teachings of Jesus.
Matthew 5:17-19

New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ Fulfills the Law

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 5:21-22

New King James Version (NKJV)

Murder Begins in the Heart

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[b] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:27-28

New King James Version (NKJV)

Adultery in the Heart

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,[a] ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[b] 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


There is a lot of Scripture that Jesus talks about the Law of Moses, but I have other things to do. If you like, I can list more including the teachings of the apostles. I'm not disagreeing with you that the law is not faith or that we can please God by keeping the Law. I imagine, if we could keep the Law perfectly, then God would be pleased with that.


- Davies

Brother,

I use red to emphasize a point. I use bold and an exclamation point and underline to emphasize as well!

Hopefully, this explanation will suffice.

As to your passages that you referred to, I have a question for you.

Who made covenant with Abraham, 430 years before the Law of Moses?

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2


JLB

 

[Davies]

Brother,

I use red to emphasize a point. I use bold and an exclamation point and underline to emphasize as well!

Hopefully, this explanation will suffice.

As to your passages that you referred to, I have a question for you.

Who made covenant with Abraham, 430 years before the Law of Moses?

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." Genesis 17:1-2


JLB

Hi JLB,

You asked where did Jesus teach the law of Moses in the Gospel, and I gave it to you. Here is another passage for your consideration.

James 2:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.



Now, unless you exclude the Gentiles from this passage, you might have a point, but I fail to see what relevance the covenant God had with Abraham has to do with the law of Moses. Paul has a lot to say regarding the law of Moses. I don't think there was one Bible writer than didn't have anything to do with the law of Moses; off the top of my head, Esther and Jonah might be the exceptions.


Red works really well for emphasizing, especially when you use and exclamation point.



- Davies

 

[Davies]

Well my friend, if you will look back on this thread and others?
I have spent hours of wasted time adressing the same issues over and over, that smaller has brought up again and again!
I do not intend to wastse anymore time in being lead in circles of carnal reasoning!

Now any scripture or biblical point you may have, I will be glad to take up and answer to the best of my ability.

Be sure that the enemy of the truth always has another question "did god really say" is the heart of every false teacher.
I have been in the circle, and answered every question!
When clear scripture is rejected? I can no longer offer any answers to anyone!

I will look back over your last few post, and see If I may have a response to one of your concerns?

God Bless- Mitspa

Mitspa,

I've read over your exchanges with smaller, and frankly, they sound like two conversations. I see two people talking at each other. Also, I don't think your remarks, that smaller's thoughts are carnal reasoning, is motivated out of love. I think you're angry and impatient with smaller. I haven't found everything smaller says to be agreeable to me, but I know that he has heart felt convictions and he uses a lot of Scriptures to point to his reasoning. 'Around we go the righteous mountain,' is a very good example of a rude and unkind tongue. I confess to impatience myself, and I'm sorry for that, but when I express my ideas or thoughts, or my carnal reasoning, I expect dialogue, not monologue(I realize this might be an unreasonable expectation). If you feel like your wasting your time, then by all means, talk about what you want to, but when someone points out something they think is important, perhaps you can try to understand the other's point of view, rather than judging them. Not everyone is at the same place of progressive sanctification that you are.

- Davies

 

[Eventide]

Re: I AM thy exceeding and great REWARD !

When I read this post this morning, I wanted to post a big AMEN! but it was so good that I thought i should add nothing to it. so now is the time AMEN AND AMEN!

I think that it is perhaps one of the most difficult things for any Christian to realize and embrace... That The Lord Jesus Christ is literally our own righteousness.. and so again it's easy to forget that at times.. so we do need the full armour of God.

Thanks again for excellent conversation IMO..

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

I've read over your exchanges with smaller, and frankly, they sound like two conversations. I see two people talking at each other. Also, I don't think your remarks, that smaller's thoughts are carnal reasoning, is motivated out of love. I think you're angry and impatient with smaller. I haven't found everything smaller says to be agreeable to me, but I know that he has heart felt convictions and he uses a lot of Scriptures to point to his reasoning. 'Around we go the righteous mountain,' is a very good example of a rude and unkind tongue. I confess to impatience myself, and I'm sorry for that, but when I express my ideas or thoughts, or my carnal reasoning, I expect dialogue, not monologue(I realize this might be an unreasonable expectation). If you feel like your wasting your time, then by all means, talk about what you want to, but when someone points out something they think is important, perhaps you can try to understand the other's point of view, rather than judging them. Not everyone is at the same place of progressive sanctification that you are.

- Davies

Well sometimes a man should stop trying to teach and become as a student? I am glad you took the time to look over this thread and our discussions on this thread. I assure you there are many more on some of the others. I have the authority as a teacher to reject those who will not or cannot hear the truth.
I will not debate the issue of why I decide, when and how I spend my efforts. "Do not partake of another mans sin"

As far as our converstions have gone, I find that you reject no scripture! I hope in an honest dialog we can come to more understanding of each others veiw?

As far as our discussions go, If you feel that you need another party, that shares your veiw, in our discussion? Please at least grant me the right refuse those who have shown no desire for truth!

Your Friend- Mitspa

 

[Davies]

Well sometimes a man should stop trying to teach and become as a student? I am glad you took the time to look over this thread and our discussions on this thread. I assure you there are many more on some of the others. I have the authority as a teacher to reject those who will not or cannot hear the truth.
I will not debate the issue of why I decide, when and how I spend my efforts. "Do not partake of another mans sin"

As far as our converstions have gone, I find that you reject no scripture! I hope in an honest dialog we can come to more understanding of each others veiw?

As far as our discussions go, If you feel that you need another party, that shares your veiw, in our discussion? Please at least grant me the right refuse those who have shown no desire for truth!

Your Friend- Mitspa

I took some time to think about what you have said, and I searched for what I think are the germane Scriptures that would be beneficial for all of us, even smaller. First is Galatians 5:13-15.

Galatians 5:13-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.â€[a] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

You realize that we fulfill the law when we love one another. This is Ten Commandments Law. I don't think we are called to reject one another, and to infer that smaller shows no desire for the truth is using one's "liberty as an opportunity for the flesh." Rather we should serve one another and treat each other as Jesus would have us treat each other. Would it be accurate that you would want to be rejected if someone thought you were not interested in the truth? I don't think so.

Galatians 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

This post may have been better placed in your Walk in the Spirit thread. To keep ourselves from using our liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, Paul tells us to walk in the Spirit. We know we are not under the law when we walk in the Spirit, and how do we know when we are walking by the Spirit?; when we love our neighbor as ourselves, when we obey the law. Paul gives us the descriptions of the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh to help us to identify where we are at.

Galatians 5:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Again, if we are rejecting one another, how is this showing the fruit of the Spirit? If God showed the same attitude towards you, you would have been rejected from the start. What does the Bible say?

Romans 5:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I tell you, when I hear Romans 5:8, the lusts of my flesh melts away. It is not natural for us to behave the way Jesus did, looking unto Him and not to the law as you say, we will be transformed into His image; we will be found working out our salvation; we will find our assurance that we are in the faith; we will find no reason to use our liberty as an opportunity for the flesh.

Thank you, Mitspa, for your patience with me. I would ask you to extend the same patience with our brother smaller.


- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

I took some time to think about what you have said, and I searched for what I think are the germane Scriptures that would be beneficial for all of us, even smaller. First is Galatians 5:13-15.

Galatians 5:13-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[a] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

You realize that we fulfill the law when we love one another. This is Ten Commandments Law. I don't think we are called to reject one another, and to infer that smaller shows no desire for the truth is using one's "liberty as an opportunity for the flesh." Rather we should serve one another and treat each other as Jesus would have us treat each other. Would it be accurate that you would want to be rejected if someone thought you were not interested in the truth? I don't think so.

Galatians 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

This post may have been better placed in your Walk in the Spirit thread. To keep ourselves from using our liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, Paul tells us to walk in the Spirit. We know we are not under the law when we walk in the Spirit, and how do we know when we are walking by the Spirit?; when we love our neighbor as ourselves, when we obey the law. Paul gives us the descriptions of the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh to help us to identify where we are at.

Galatians 5:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Again, if we are rejecting one another, how is this showing the fruit of the Spirit? If God showed the same attitude towards you, you would have been rejected from the start. What does the Bible say?

Romans 5:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I tell you, when I hear Romans 5:8, the lusts of my flesh melts away. It is not natural for us to behave the way Jesus did, looking unto Him and not to the law as you say, we will be transformed into His image; we will be found working out our salvation; we will find our assurance that we are in the faith; we will find no reason to use our liberty as an opportunity for the flesh.

Thank you, Mitspa, for your patience with me. I would ask you to extend the same patience with our brother smaller.


- Davies

Well I am glad that you and others who seem so concerned with correction and such? would rejoice when you see how biblical correction works! We who walk according to truth, sometimes commanded to seperate ourselves from those who refuse to yield to truth! I do not feel it nessasry to quote scriptures in my own defense, you may feel free to judge the matter how you like?

As far as my keeping the commandment of Christ (the royal law) I have no reason to doubt that I have maintained the Love of Christ! I warned the religious and shown mercy to the humble just as My Lord has taught, all those that follow Him. The tares and the wheat sing many of the same songs and quote the same verses, but one reproduces life, the other does not. I am not called to water the weed but the plant that grows from the Seed. I am confident that I am able to decern with whom I am to show truth, and when truth has no place.

Now we have been through the process where I have been accused of sin! ignorance etc.. I have heard all this before!

I am not moved by mans opinion nor the judgment of man. I hope we can return to the issue of the thread, which is WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

 

[JLB]

Well I am glad that you and others who seem so concerned with correction and such? would rejoice when you see how biblical correction works! We who walk according to truth, sometimes commanded to seperate ourselves from those who refuse to yield to truth! I do not feel it nessasry to quote scriptures in my own defense, you may feel free to judge the matter how you like?

As far as my keeping the commandment of Christ (the royal law) I have no reason to doubt that I have maintained the Love of Christ! I warned the religious and shown mercy to the humble just as My Lord has taught, all those that follow Him. The tares and the wheat sing many of the same songs and quote the same verses, but one reproduces life, the other does not. I am not called to water the weed but the plant that grows from the Seed. I am confident that I am able to decern with whom I am to show truth, and when truth has no place.

Now we have been through the process where I have been accused of sin! ignorance etc.. I have heard all this before!

I am not moved by mans opinion nor the judgment of man. I hope we can return to the issue of the thread, which is WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

Personally, I hope to gain from your dialog with Davies.

I will quote this scripture from Genesis for comment from the both of you.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

The same Lord that made covenant with Abraham, died on the cross for our sins, that if we believe, He counts it as righteousness on our behalf.

He is our righteousness!

Those who have been filled with His Spirit, have no desire to sin, rather our desire is for Him.


JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Personally, I hope to gain from your dialog with Davies.

I will quote this scripture from Genesis for comment from the both of you.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

The same Lord that made covenant with Abraham, died on the cross for our sins, that if we believe, He counts it as righteousness on our behalf.

He is our righteousness!

Those who have been filled with His Spirit, have no desire to sin, rather our desire is for Him.


JLB

Yes my friend I too have enjoyed the sincere and honest dialog that Davies and I have had. I hope we can continue in a honest discussion on the issue of the law?

I agree with you also that we who look to Christ hate the sin that dwells in the flesh! The truth of the gospel is that it is Gods grace and free gift of righteousness that gives us power over the flesh. The law works against us in this battle, this is shown clearly in scripture! Its just kind of hard for the natural mind to yield to this truth. Thus the just must live by faith, our confidence must be in the grace of God we receive as we look to Christ alone. We have no confidence in the flesh, and do not attempt to justify ourselves by the law.

God bless and thank you for your impute -Mitspa

 

[Davies]

Personally, I hope to gain from your dialog with Davies.

I will quote this scripture from Genesis for comment from the both of you.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:4-5

The same Lord that made covenant with Abraham, died on the cross for our sins, that if we believe, He counts it as righteousness on our behalf.

He is our righteousness!

Those who have been filled with His Spirit, have no desire to sin, rather our desire is for Him.


JLB

Hi JLB,

I would agree with this post. Salvation and progressive sanctification have always come by faith. Though Abraham didn't have the law of Moses at the time, he demonstrated how sanctification is accomplished, by faith. I would also agree that because Jesus is our righteousness, He was the one who earned our salvation. It is the heart of the Gospel. The death and resurrection speak to the atoning work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit's testimony that God the Father found His sacrifice acceptable. The law of God was obeyed by God in that we see the penalty of sin paid, and we also see the mercy of God to forgive sinners testified by the Holy Spirit when we see Jesus resurrected and being lifted up to Heaven in the clouds. The law of God helps us come to Jesus by revealing sin to be exceedingly sinful; the the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and shows us the love of God found in Jesus and the cross. Sorry for being so redundant, but I think this is good to meditate on everyday. We shouldn't be afraid of the law anymore if our trust is in Jesus. If our trust is in Jesus, the Holy Spirit will help us bear fruit found in Galatians 5:22-23. If we are not bearing fruit, then we have every right to be concerned about our salvation, and we need to go back to the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There is nothing better that points to the cross than the law of God, for the unbeliever as well as the believer.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Hi JLB,

I would agree with this post. Salvation and progressive sanctification have always come by faith. Though Abraham didn't have the law of Moses at the time, he demonstrated how sanctification is accomplished, by faith. I would also agree that because Jesus is our righteousness, He was the one who earned our salvation. It is the heart of the Gospel. The death and resurrection speak to the atoning work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit's testimony that God the Father found His sacrifice acceptable. The law of God was obeyed by God in that we see the penalty of sin paid, and we also see the mercy of God to forgive sinners testified by the Holy Spirit when we see Jesus resurrected and being lifted up to Heaven in the clouds. The law of God helps us come to Jesus by revealing sin to be exceedingly sinful; the the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and shows us the love of God found in Jesus and the cross. Sorry for being so redundant, but I think this is good to meditate on everyday. We shouldn't be afraid of the law anymore if our trust is in Jesus. If our trust is in Jesus, the Holy Spirit will help us bear fruit found in Galatians 5:22-23. If we are not bearing fruit, then we have every right to be concerned about our salvation, and we need to go back to the cross.

1 Corinthians 1:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

There is nothing better that points to the cross than the law of God, for the unbeliever as well as the believer.

- Davies

Well I see some truth mixed with tradition in this post. The scriptures are clear that the law Produces sinful desires! not that it makes sin really bad? But that it causes sinful desires to be aroused in us! the strength of sin is the law! the law is not of faith! whatever is not of faith is sin!

So one can put a good ole religious twist to it and then its still false doctrine!

did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?

Who has bewitched you? is Pauls words to all you who look to the law!

For even until this day their minds are blinded in the reading of the law of Moses!

 

[Davies]

Well I see some truth mixed with tradition in this post. The scriptures are clear that the law Produces sinful desires! not that it makes sin really bad?

Hi Mitspa,

Yes, the law does show sin to be really bad.

Romans 7:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.


Notice, Paul says that sin produced death in him through what is good, the law.

But that it causes sinful desires to be aroused in us! the strength of sin is the law! the law is not of faith! whatever is not of faith is sin!

You should see that previously in Romans 7:8 that Paul says that it is sin that produces the evil desire not the law.

Romans 7:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

If there is no law, then we cannot see the sin within us. Romans 7:13, the law was given so that sin might appear sin. That's why the giving of the law was such an act of grace. The better we can see sin for what it is, the better we will understand our need for salvation, and the better we will see how much God has forgiven us after we have trusted in Christ. We shall spend eternity coming to greater depths of understanding of just what exactly Jesus did for us at the cross.

So one can put a good ole religious twist to it and then its still false doctrine!

I'm not sure what you mean by religious twisting, but I do understand that if we try to live by the law to be right with God, that would not be living by faith, and can only lead to hypocrisy as we would not be able to live under such a heavy yoke as all the other religions do.

did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?

When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, doesn't He show you that you have violated the law of God and thus your need of repentance, salvation, trust in Christ? Yes, we go to Christ by faith in the substitutionary atonement. I'm not advocating keeping the law to be right with God.

Who has bewitched you? is Pauls words to all you who look to the law! For even until this day their minds are blinded in the reading of the law of Moses!

I would agree that Paul said those words to those who were trying to live by the law to be right with God.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa,

Yes, the law does show sin to be really bad.

Romans 7:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.


Notice, Paul says that sin produced death in him through what is good, the law.

You should see that previously in Romans 7:8 that Paul says that it is sin that produces the evil desire not the law.

Romans 7:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

If there is no law, then we cannot see the sin within us. Romans 7:13, the law was given so that sin might appear sin. That's why the giving of the law was such an act of grace. The better we can see sin for what it is, the better we will understand our need for salvation, and the better we will see how much God has forgiven us after we have trusted in Christ. We shall spend eternity coming to greater depths of understanding of just what exactly Jesus did for us at the cross.

I'm not sure what you mean by religious twisting, but I do understand that if we try to live by the law to be right with God, that would not be living by faith, and can only lead to hypocrisy as we would not be able to live under such a heavy yoke as all the other religions do.

When the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, doesn't He show you that you have violated the law of God and thus your need of repentance, salvation, trust in Christ? Yes, we go to Christ by faith in the substitutionary atonement. I'm not advocating keeping the law to be right with God.

I would agree that Paul said those words to those who were trying to live by the law to be right with God.

- Davies

It seems you are saying that we are kinda under the law, but not really? That we are saved by faith but we need the law to remind us we are sinners, although we are justified by faith?

That the law causes sinful desires in us, but we need to have those sinful desires to keep us in faith? I am sorry brother, thats just religious double talk to me! The stand one must take for the gospel is very hard, someone might call you a name, or say you are not concerned about sin ?

But you who are under law have fallen from grace ! you have been cut off from Christ. For only grace is the power over sin.

Those who RECEIVE an abundance of grace and the GIFT of righteousness will reign in life with Christ.

I will ask you the question Paul would ask you?
If we are justified by Christ, RIGHTEOUS, how can the law show us as sinners?

No! The law cannot call guilty what Christ has made clean!

You must die to the law!

But the serpent says " ye shall not surely die"

 

[wayseer]

The purpose of the law was not to make us 'clean' The purpose of the law was to demonstrate where we gone wrong. The purpose of sacrifice was to make us 'clean'.

 

[Mitspa]

Re: I AM thy exceeding and great REWARD !

I think that it is perhaps one of the most difficult things for any Christian to realize and embrace... That The Lord Jesus Christ is literally our own righteousness.. and so again it's easy to forget that at times.. so we do need the full armour of God.

Thanks again for excellent conversation IMO..

When Paul comes to the end of Romans 7 He says oh wretched man that I am WHO will deliver me? Then he declares that he is delivered by a PERSON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

Paul knew his salvation was a person, not a set of rules, not a program, not a church! but a person!

The name Jesus means Savior! Its all about Him! He has been made unto us wisdom, sanctification and righteousness!

When Paul descibes the mystery of Godliness? He decribes Christ Jesus!

Yes He is our righteousness!
1 Jn writes the Fathers commandment and Christ commandment That we believe on His Son and love as He gave us commandment.

Paul wrote that NOTHING PROFITS ANYTHING BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE.l

Its so simple yet so hidden to the natural mind!

God Bless and thank you for your post -Mitspa

 

[Davies]

It seems you are saying that we are kinda under the law, but not really? That we are saved by faith but we need the law to remind us we are sinners, although we are justified by faith?

That the law causes sinful desires in us, but we need to have those sinful desires to keep us in faith? I am sorry brother, thats just religious double talk to me! The stand one must take for the gospel is very hard, someone might call you a name, or say you are not concerned about sin ?

Mitspa,

In Romans 7:13, Paul does not say that the law causes sin, but sin produces all manner of evil desire. Sin produces death through what is good, the law(Romans 7:13). If we say we are without sin, then we are liars. You can't tell me you don't sin, because the Bible says clearly that we sin. And if it was possible to live perfectly from now on, we still have the sin in the past that we are guilty of. I do grant you that, as Christians, we are justified by the righteousness of Jesus, by His blood and resurrection, by faith. This means when God looks at us, our sins are not held against us as they are imputed to Jesus. But I would not hold that we are without sin because, I'm still living in this sinful body. This body is still going to die as the holy consequences of God's law takes its course. Depending on your age, I'm sure that if you don't have gray hair yet, you'll be getting it soon. Did you read Romans 7:13 and 7:8? Paul clearly states that sin causes evil desire.

You should be able to agree with this statement:
Romans 7:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Also:

Romans 7:21-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now we see the importance of walking in the Spirit. Does that mean we don't stumble anymore and we walk perfectly with God. No way. Peter was guilty of sin after coming to faith and being baptized with a supernatural emanation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and even Paul at the end of his life confessed to being the chief of sinners. Paul's attitude of himself was worse than the beginning; going from the least of the apostles to the chief of sinners. "If we are justified by Christ," then why did Paul carry the label of "chief of sinners?" Are you denying that you sin, now that you have become a Christian? What would you attribute your sin to if you do sin? I would put to you that if you were to stand before God in your present state, you would fall flat to your face and say, as Isaiah said, 'I am a man of unclean lips.' Not until these bodies of death die and we are fully sanctified and given a new body, that is not corrupt and is without sin, will we be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

This is better explained from a transcript of a lecture that Dr. R.C. Sproul gave where he talked about Martin Luther's Latin phrase simul justus et peccator. "In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel." http://www.ligonier.org/blog/simul-justus-et-peccator/

The only difference between you and the unbeliever is that you have the Holy Spirit within you having been born again, having your sins accounted to Jesus, and His righteousness imputed to you. This should work its way out as you grow in sanctification for all the world to see. This is called glorifying God. Often people can't tell the difference between the Christian and the self-righteous atheist, because the atheist may do more good deeds than the Christian, to our shame. But we know the atheist does good deeds because he believes he's a good person not taking into account God's standards, the Ten Commandments. The Christian will acknowledge there is nothing good in and of himself, but thank God for the Holy Spirit who indwells us so that we can walk by the Spirit. Another way of saying this is when we die to the law, we acknowledge there is nothing good in us, but when we come to Christ, we are delivered from the law no longer subject to its consequences, and the Holy Spirit comes in us and enables us to live righteously, fulfilling the law, or loving our neighbor as ourselves, however imperfect we still are. Our bodies of death, though, are subject to the consequences of the law, as they will one day die.

But the serpent says " ye shall not surely die"

Another lie from Satan is, 'You are not a sinner, or, you're not that bad.'

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

In Romans 7:13, Paul does not say that the law causes sin, but sin produces all manner of evil desire. Sin produces death through what is good, the law(Romans 7:13). If we say we are without sin, then we are liars. You can't tell me you don't sin, because the Bible says clearly that we sin. And if it was possible to live perfectly from now on, we still have the sin in the past that we are guilty of. I do grant you that, as Christians, we are justified by the righteousness of Jesus, by His blood and resurrection, by faith. This means when God looks at us, our sins are not held against us as they are imputed to Jesus. But I would not hold that we are without sin because, I'm still living in this sinful body. This body is still going to die as the holy consequences of God's law takes its course. Depending on your age, I'm sure that if you don't have gray hair yet, you'll be getting it soon. Did you read Romans 7:13 and 7:8? Paul clearly states that sin causes evil desire.

You should be able to agree with this statement:
Romans 7:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Also:

Romans 7:21-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Now we see the importance of walking in the Spirit. Does that mean we don't stumble anymore and we walk perfectly with God. No way. Peter was guilty of sin after coming to faith and being baptized with a supernatural emanation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and even Paul at the end of his life confessed to being the chief of sinners. Paul's attitude of himself was worse than the beginning; going from the least of the apostles to the chief of sinners. "If we are justified by Christ," then why did Paul carry the label of "chief of sinners?" Are you denying that you sin, now that you have become a Christian? What would you attribute your sin to if you do sin? I would put to you that if you were to stand before God in your present state, you would fall flat to your face and say, as Isaiah said, 'I am a man of unclean lips.' Not until these bodies of death die and we are fully sanctified and given a new body, that is not corrupt and is without sin, will we be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

This is better explained from a transcript of a lecture that Dr. R.C. Sproul gave where he talked about Martin Luther's Latin phrase simul justus et peccator. "In and of ourselves, under the analysis of God’s scrutiny, we still have sin; we’re still sinners. But, by imputation and by faith in Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is now transferred to our account, then we are considered just or righteous. This is the very heart of the gospel." http://www.ligonier.org/blog/simul-justus-et-peccator/

The only difference between you and the unbeliever is that you have the Holy Spirit within you having been born again, having your sins accounted to Jesus, and His righteousness imputed to you. This should work its way out as you grow in sanctification for all the world to see. This is called glorifying God. Often people can't tell the difference between the Christian and the self-righteous atheist, because the atheist may do more good deeds than the Christian, to our shame. But we know the atheist does good deeds because he believes he's a good person not taking into account God's standards, the Ten Commandments. The Christian will acknowledge there is nothing good in and of himself, but thank God for the Holy Spirit who indwells us so that we can walk by the Spirit. Another way of saying this is when we die to the law, we acknowledge there is nothing good in us, but when we come to Christ, we are delivered from the law no longer subject to its consequences, and the Holy Spirit comes in us and enables us to live righteously, fulfilling the law, or loving our neighbor as ourselves, however imperfect we still are. Our bodies of death, though, are subject to the consequences of the law, as they will one day die.

Another lie from Satan is, 'You are not a sinner, or, you're not that bad.'

- Davies

Again you seem to quote what is clear and then pretend you have answered the question?

No! you have avoided the issue!
the commandment causes sin in us to have strength. Sin takes the commandment and uses it to produce all types of evil desires.

This is why the law produces hypocricy, because the same folks that pretend they keep it, are full of evil desires from it.
They walk around judging others, while in their heart they lust for such and such. Cursed is every man who is under law!

You seem to be so concerned about sin, yet you promote and defend that which holds believers in bondage to sin?

Grace is the only answer to sin , in scripture, all else is just religious nonsense.

Again I ask, If Christ Blood testifies that you are justified and righteous by faith in His Blood, then how can the law of moses make a charge of sin against you?

This is double minded christianty! I am righteous yet I am a sinner?

 

[Mitspa]

Some of you are so guilt ridden, so full of shame And condemnation that you are blinded to the truth! Your own conscience condemns you and blinds your hearts from the Mercy of God, in Christ. You cannot understand how the grace of Christ has set some of us free from sin!

I tell you, until you look away from Moses and see only Jesus, you will be held in your own sin.

Look to Him oh wicked man! and He shall set free indeed!

 

[Davies]

Some of you are so guilt ridden, so full of shame And condemnation that you are blinded to the truth! Your own conscience condemns you and blinds your hearts from the Mercy of God, in Christ. You cannot understand how the grace of Christ has set some of us free from sin!

I tell you, until you look away from Moses and see only Jesus, you will be held in your own sin.

Look to Him oh wicked man! and He shall set free indeed!

Spoken by one who's love is for the brethren, maintaining the love of Christ. I'm really feeling your Christ honoring love, my Job's friend. You really know how to understand other people. Instead of trying to understand, you provoke. What did you reply that hasn't been your mantra? If you want to be a friend, you need to show yourself friendly. You can call me a wicked man all you want to, for you haven't accused me of a fraction of my sin. I do have a lot of guilt, and I naturally feel bad because of it. I know that I'm a sinner, giving credence to everything that God has said. Let God be true, and everyman a liar. But you assume my reasons for self-examination, and presume that I don't look to Christ. You show you have no knowledge of me, but only see what you can understand.

I can still rejoice in this correspondence because I know you preach the Gospel.

Job 16:1-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

Job Reproaches His Pitiless Friends

16 Then Job answered and said:
2 “I have heard many such things;
Miserable comforters are you all!
3 Shall words of wind have an end?
Or what provokes you that you answer?
4 I also could speak as you do,
If your soul were in my soul’s place.
I could heap up words against you,
And shake my head at you;
5 But I would strengthen you with my mouth,
And the comfort of my lips would relieve your grief.

Philippians 1:15-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: 16 The former[a] preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; 17 but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.

From one wretch to the other,

- Davies