WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

[Osgiliath]

We can spin around in all kinds of manners about 'what' the Law of Moses is.

Paul encompassed EVERY COMMAND in the entire text simply, succinctly in Romans 13:8-10 and YES, he laid that on EVERY BELIEVER, period, beyond any questions.

From that point the LAW OF MOSES is a matter of 'how' one is led to READ same.

If it is read IN ACCORDANCE with Paul's understandings, the Spirit WILL YIELD up the understandings, not in CARNAL FASHIONS but in Spiritual simplicity.

That was the 'change in the LAW of MOSES.'

And yes, a CHILD can be entirely LEGAL in this way. Pity more adults can't read:

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Oh, but that is sooo hard isn't it?

Paul hung every command in the scriptures under the DIVINE AXIOM above.

And those who do not and can not do that are....drumroll

utterly LAWLESS.

Pity, that.

s

I agree with you more times than not smalls, but certainly not here.

The law of Moses is not spiritual, and we are specifically told that it is "the letter," and "the letter" is contrasted with "the spirit."


2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones [Ten Commandments], was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY:
2 Corinthians 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"


This entire third chapter of 2 Corinthians emphasizes the "doing away" and the "abolishing" of the law of Moses, which is called the "ministration of death."

2 Corinthians 3:11 "For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is ABOLISHED:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is DONE AWAY in Christ."


The Scriptures tell us there was an Old Covenant (for Israel) that was an administration of condemnation and death: it was but a "shadow" of a better covenant to come and has been "annulled'. Now Christ has given us a New Covenant of the spirit based on spiritual law which include the Law of God [in the Heart] (Hebrews 10:16), the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit (Romans 8:2), the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27), the Law of Liberty (James 1:25), the Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:30, 31), and the Law of Life (Galatians 3:11, Galatians 6:8).

These perfect laws (7 laws; 7 = 'divine completeness'), written on our hearts by the spirit of God, cover every aspect of human life making the Old Covenant of none effect.



There are two covenants mentioned in Scripture. "God ...hath made us able ministers of the new testament, [the Greek word is diatheke, the same word translated Covenant in Luke 1:72, Acts 3:25; Acts 7:8; Romans 9:4 and Romans 11:27], "not of the letter but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthains 3:6).


Paul is referring to the two covenants mentioned in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts [in the spirit, not in the letter], and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."


Smalls, did you catch verse 32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...?

There is something different about this covenant. It is not according to the "letter but of the spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:6).


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:23 But BEFORE faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should AFTERWARDS be revealed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."


Those 'locked up' or 'imprisoned' [Greek= [I]katakleio][/I] "under the law" are those to whom the law is addressed.

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God."

1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers"

The Law is not for a righteous man. (Don't shoot the messenger - I'm not claiming this pertains to me ;))

The question is; who are those who are "under the law"? As far as God is concerned it is "all the world" and they are "all... guilty before God" because the law (the ten commandments) is a "ministration of death" (2 Corinthians 3:7) and "the ministration of condemnation" (2 Corinthians 3:9). The ten commandments were not designed for those who have God's law of love written on their hearts.




It is the words of Christ (not the law of Moses) that will judge us.

John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


None of these verses is referring to the law of Moses. If they were, the sermon on the mount would never have needed to be delivered!"




The letter always opposes the spirit. "The letter" is "the law of Moses." There is NO SPIRIT to "hate your enemy" or "an eye for an eye."

"Hate your enemy" (Matthew 5:43) taken from God's command to Israel in Deuteronomy 23:3-6 is not to be spiritually construed to mean "love your enemy."


"Love your enemy" is opposed to "hate your enemy." If you try to somehow make the old agree with the new, you will end up "making the tear worse;" "breaking the bottles" and "spilling the wine" and the result would be to "perish"!

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill."

Matthew 5:18 "...One jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Christ is not saying that the Torah, the law, would be in effect till all be fulfilled. If that were the meaning, then circumcision would be necessary for salvation, because it is one of the most often repeated, obvious requirements of, and the original token of God's relationship with his people (Genesis 17:10 and Joshua 5:3-7).

Galatians 3:10 "As many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things [physical circumcision?] which are written in the book of the law to do them."

If "till all be fulfilled" (Greek - pleroo) means keeping every "jot and tittle" of "all things written in the book of the law to do them, then why does Christ in this same chapter urge his disciples to break the law and LOVE THEIR ENEMIES?



Obviously pleroo "fulfilled" has more to do with bringing the law to a spiritual consummation in "Christ who is the end [end product, goal - love] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Romans 10:4), than it has to do with keeping every jot and tittle in the Torah. What Christ is saying is that when all is pleroo, the law will pass away.

Has heaven or earth passed away? Why then are we not circumcising?


Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


Paul says that God sent Christ to accomplish in us what the law could not accomplish because of the "weakness of the flesh". So "Christ in us" (Galatians 2:20) accomplishes something the law could not do. Christ strengthens us "that the righteousness of the law might be-pleroo-fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh [the letter] but after the spirit." This is the "law of love" (Matthew 22:37-40) that faith establishes (Romans 3:31-"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law"). Establishing the "law of love" necessitates the "disannulling of the commandment" (Hebrews 7:18) as Christ demonstrates in Matthew Chapter 5.

"The law" is itself a prophecy and type of the kingdom of God. It is through the "fulfilling and vanishing away" of the old testament law that the kingdom of God is "established" in the person and body of Jesus Christ.


Anyway, if the Spirit helps me recall some more on this, I'll post it. It's my bed time. I must say though, that I think you are missing the "bigger picture" regarding the types and shadows concerning the law - as it relates to God's overall plan of the ages. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. I at least hope you will be mature and polite about this disagreement and not resort to personal insults. I would expect personal jabs from some others, but not from you. Peace, and God bless.

 

[Mitspa]

I know this will be a hard thing for some to understand? seeing how religion and law have so blinded some?
But those of us who are IN CHRIST, Heaven and earth have in fact past away?

If any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATION, the OLD THINGS have PAST AWAY, Behold all things are new!

Now I know that is just foolish to those of you who are under law! but so is the Cross to those who perish.

But those of you who look to Christ Jesus, as your righteousness. every jot and tittle of the law was fulfilled by Our Beloved Lord. We are new creations, created in true righteousness and holiness, by the very Words of Life, that He spoke!

If any man glory, let him glory in this, that we Have a God of goodness, mercy and compassion, who paid the whole price for our sins! and gave us life, who deserved death.

 

[Mitspa]

You will notice that those who try to deny the lords work, and put believers back under law, love the scripture " that not one jot or tittle will pass away until its all fulfilled" also Christ said He came to FULFILL the law. These is clear in the rest of the New Testament, one must have a dishonest heart to reject the clear truth.

But some will say we are only under part of the law? usally the part they think they can do!

No! what the Lord was saying, was its ALL EVERY JOT AND TITTLE , ITS ALL THE LAW!

now if He did not fulfill it ALL? THEN WE ARE UNDER IT ALL! not the parts you and your little groups decide upon!

2 Cor 3 The ministry of death and condemnnation is replaced by the ministry of the Spirit and rightousness! The ministry of DEATH WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONE? ONLY THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WAS WRITTEN IN STONE!

Paul in Roms 7:7 quoted The commandment Thou shalt not covet, produced in us a desire to do the very thing we were commanded not to do! The strength of sin is the law! the law is not of faith!

These things are so clear! evident as Paul says! Only satan has blinded the minds and hearts of these poor people!

They know they cannot keep the law, yet they would condemn others with it? Ye hypocrites, ye pit of vipers!

I want to bring this truth forward today, EVERY JOT AND TITTLE? so those of you who look to the law, which part of the law have you and your little group decided has past away?

so we are still under part of the law, but not all the law?

Kinda under law, but not really? God hates that kind of double minded, religious nonsense.

This is the luke warm church! kinda saved, but not really!
Kinda trusting in Christ, but not really! kinda righteous but not really!

maybe and kinda! "did God really say"

The just shall live by faith! faith is the confidence of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen! without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God!

 

[John 8:32]

So according to your understanding, we are free from the penalty of the law, but we are still under the law? thats just rligious double talk! kinda under the law but not really?

so here I am standing in front of the Judge. He says to me, "you are guilty of first degree murder and the sentence is death". Now a wonderful Person steps up and says "I know that John 8:32 has committed all these sins, and I know he is guilty and I know he deserves to die, but I will take his punishment for him. I will go to the electric chair, gallows, gas chamber or whatever form of punishment in his place." so the Judge says "Alright, You will take his place", and that is exactly what happens. This wonderful Person dies in my stead, so now I am free to go commit murder again as many times as I want, correct? That is what your line of reasoning is saying here. Since Christ took the penalty for our sins, the law no longer applies to us. And you call what I said religious double talk?

Yes! Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law, and only by walking in the spirit can anyone satisfy the righteous requirements of the law! How does one walk in the spirit? by dying to the law with Christ and walking in the spirit of life.

So which part do you guys claim was not fulfilled by Christ?

Because either He fulfilled every jot and tittle or He fulfilled none of it?

Yes He filled it up full...

fulfill:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

I don't see one word in here that says it is done away or no longer in force.

So if you have to keep a part of it, you have to keep all of it!

Which commandments are still effective in your understanding?

the 10 commandments? the sabbath? which part of the law do you pretend that you keep?

I strive to obey all of the Commandments...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

John, the apostle of love, says that Christ takes away our sin, he does NOT say He took away the law which defines sin. You speak of the law as a bad thing, so a law against murder is a bad thing? A law against adultery, lying, stealing, lusting, dishonoring your parents is a bad thing? Having other gods before God is good? Having idols is good? Do you take God's name in vain? Probably not, it really all comes down to the fourth commandment doesn't it?

 

[John 8:32]

I want to bring this truth forward today, EVERY JOT AND TITTLE? so those of you who look to the law, which part of the law have you and your little group decided has past away?

so we are still under part of the law, but not all the law?

Kinda under law, but not really? God hates that kind of double minded, religious nonsense.

This is the luke warm church! kinda saved, but not really!
Kinda trusting in Christ, but not really! kinda righteous but not really!

maybe and kinda! "did God really say"

The just shall live by faith! faith is the confidence of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen! without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God!

So I guess you are saying that there is no law? That anarchy is God's way? That murder, adultery, lying, stealing, lusting and dishonoring our parents is how we should live?

 

[John 8:32]

Hmmm, bad old law...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

 

[JLB]

so here I am standing in front of the Judge. He says to me, "you are guilty of first degree murder and the sentence is death". Now a wonderful Person steps up and says "I know that John 8:32 has committed all these sins, and I know he is guilty and I know he deserves to die, but I will take his punishment for him. I will go to the electric chair, gallows, gas chamber or whatever form of punishment in his place." so the Judge says "Alright, You will take his place", and that is exactly what happens. This wonderful Person dies in my stead, so now I am free to go commit murder again as many times as I want, correct? That is what your line of reasoning is saying here. Since Christ took the penalty for our sins, the law no longer applies to us. And you call what I said religious double talk?


Yes He filled it up full...

fulfill:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

I don't see one word in here that says it is done away or no longer in force.



I strive to obey all of the Commandments...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

John, the apostle of love, says that Christ takes away our sin, he does NOT say He took away the law which defines sin. You speak of the law as a bad thing, so a law against murder is a bad thing? A law against adultery, lying, stealing, lusting, dishonoring your parents is a bad thing? Having other gods before God is good? Having idols is good? Do you take God's name in vain? Probably not, it really all comes down to the fourth commandment doesn't it?

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The emphasis is on relationship, rather than the rules of the Law.



For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


If the law of aerodynamics makes you free from the law of gravity, it doesn't mean the law of gravity has been "put in check" for everybody else, it means you are operating in a law that transcends the law of gravity, for you.
The law of gravity is still in operation!


IF YOU TRY TO OPERATE IN THE LAW OF GRAVITY AND THE LAW OF AERODYNAMICS AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE SHIPWRECK!


...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


The emphasis is being filled with The Spirit, not trying to" keep the commandments"!


JLB

 

[smaller]

I agree with you more times than not smalls, but certainly not here. The law of Moses is not spiritual,

Paul cites the Law is spiritual. Romans 7:14

2 Corinthians 3:6 "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones [Ten Commandments], was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY:
2 Corinthians 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?"
This entire third chapter of 2 Corinthians emphasizes the "doing away" and the "abolishing" of the law of Moses, which is called the "ministration of death."

You should know that one does not emphasize one portion to the neglect of another. The ministration of death is MEANT to come upon 'all' believers.

Paul delineates this matter quite nicely, also in Romans 7, particularly vs. 10-11.

2 Corinthians 3:11 "For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is ABOLISHED:
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is DONE AWAY in Christ."
The Scriptures tell us there was an Old Covenant (for Israel) that was an administration of condemnation and death: it was but a "shadow" of a better covenant to come and has been "annulled'.

Again, the ministration of death maintains it's purpose as noted by Paul above.

The LAW is also noted as you cite, a matter of shadows of the 'good things to come.' And this, well after the cross and resurrection. So don't mistake that shadow as being fulfilled. It does also portend what is on the horizon.

Now Christ has given us a New Covenant of the spirit based on spiritual law which include the Law of God [in the Heart] (Hebrews 10:16), the Law of Christ, the Law of the Spirit (Romans 8:2), the Law of Faith (Romans 3:27), the Law of Liberty (James 1:25), the Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:30, 31), and the Law of Life (Galatians 3:11, Galatians 6:8).

The entire matters you reference above are factually in the OLD TESTAMENT from which ALL matters of the N.T. were taught.

Was grace in the O.T? Undoubtedly. Was justification by faith in the O.T? Yes. Was the righteousness of God apart from Law in the O.T? Again, yes. How about Divine Mercy in the O.T? Again, yes. Every count will find their basis in the O.T.

These perfect laws (7 laws; 7 = 'divine completeness', written on our hearts by the spirit of God, cover every aspect of human life making the Old Covenant of none effect.

Os, you are making the same fumble as the others in this thread by only seeing the matters of LAW carnally when you know they are spiritually understood by the methods of comparisons, spiritual to spiritual, which you cite at the bottom of your every post.

There are two covenants mentioned in Scripture. "God ...hath made us able ministers of the new testament, [the Greek word is diatheke, the same word translated Covenant in Luke 1:72, Acts 3:25; Acts 7:8; Romans 9:4 and Romans 11:27, "not of the letter but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life" (2 Corinthains 3:6).

You sacrifice the spiritual intent on the basis of the letter. There is no use or need to do that. The letter itself is generally quite irrelevant to what is contained therein.

Here, let's look at one minor example from Paul in 1 Cor. 9:

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Pardon my indulgence here, but as you can see the LAW itself regarding ox and corn really have nothing to do with Paul’s conclusions from that matter.

The challenge is to understand ‘how’ he got there, is it not?

Paul is referring to the two covenants mentioned in Jeremiah:
Smalls, did you catch verse 32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers...?

Assuredly! You should know I am certainly not making any kind of case for butchering lambs or showing up in the pew on Sunday in understanding LAW. The Law was always ‘spiritual’ and to be understood spiritually and ‘within the heart’ exactly as Hebrews and Jeremiah reference in these matters.

It will transcribe by the methodologies laid out by Jesus and the Apostles through the workings of the Holy Spirit vivifying such matters. An easy gig? No. But there are certain methods to employ along these lines, many of the tools for which you already use and ‘employ’ to derive your understandings.

There is something different about this covenant. It is not according to the "letter but of the spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:6).

Of course! You can however ‘see’ that Paul says outright that those ‘O.T.’ matters are in fact ‘written for us.’
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written

Was the Law of Moses with even that obscure LAW about OXEN and CORN written for us Os? Uh, yeah. It was, altogether even for ‘us.’

And it had zero to do with OXEN and CORN.

Galatians 3:22-25
Those 'locked up' or 'imprisoned [Greek= [I]katakleio]"under the law" are those to whom the law is addressed.

A couple of observations. One, we ARE and REMAIN under the tutelage of THE SPIRIT in all matters. The other, sin remains utterly condemned forever under THE LETTER and we all still factually carry that working internally.
The cross and resurrection did not make any of us sinless. That is however a common and false teaching.

Sins remain attributed, but not to MANKIND. (2 Cor. 5:19)

And this too the LAW via the Holy Spirit will ‘teach.’

It is not the Holy Spirit that teaches ‘believers’ to lie about the fact of having sin.

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God."
1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers"

The Law is not for a righteous man.

I’ve pointed out the fact prior that Paul was the chief of sinners, and of course Paul also above says that the LAW is for SINNERS. So the math on that is pretty clear isn’t it?

Unfortunately and again, many believers see themselves as ‘sinless.’

Such have been taught to lie. And not by God.

The question is; who are those who are "under the law"? As far as God is concerned it is "all the world"and they are "all... guilty before God" because the law (the ten commandments) is a "ministration of death" (2 Corinthians 3:7) and "the ministration of condemnation" (2 Corinthians 3:9). The ten commandments were not designed for those who have God's law of love written on their hearts.

If the ‘ministration’ of DEATH TO DEATH, SIN AND EVIL is glorious it should not be looked at with disdain, but is in fact part of our ‘future expectation’ is it not?
That is also why it is ‘fading’ glory because once that comes about, it will not be measured out any more, after the destruction of sin, evil and death, to be, as you know, swallowed up by HIS ETERNAL LIFE.

It is the words of Christ (not the law of Moses) that will judge us.

As it pertains to ‘believers,’ yes. But that is not ‘all’ that goes on ‘within’ believers Os. I may save a judgment ‘facts’ discussion for another thread, but in brief there are TWO judgments. One unto death and one unto life. And I know the camp you run with and how they view these matters, having examined same quite intimately. Personally I am not a fan of the ‘temporary’ hell position, which I know you hold. I have no issues with ‘eternal judgments’ as it pertains to the powers of ‘sin, evil and death.’ And no, they will not be changed, but permanently eradicated.

John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
None of these verses is referring to the law of Moses. If they were, the sermon on the mount would never have needed to be delivered!

Os, seriously, don’t you know that ALL of the Words of God of the Old Testament are the Words of God in Christ?

It was the SPIRIT OF CHRIST who spoke through them ALL.

The letter always opposes the spirit. "The letter" is "the law of Moses." There is NO SPIRIT to "hate your enemy" or "an eye for an eye."

There IS NO dispute between Gods Word and Spirit Os. That is not possible.
There is a factual working of God that you know as well.Paul delineates this in 1 Cor. 15 as ‘first’ the natural, then the Spiritual. It is no different in the LAW. First there is a ‘natural showing’ in ‘natural men’ and then the ‘spiritual’ in Christ and in spiritual men. It’s actually quite orderly.

And within the NATURAL WORDS are also SPIRITUAL WORDS. There is NO use to DENIGRATE or CAST ASIDE any of Gods Words on the basis of the ‘letter’ when they are ALL in fact SPIRITUAL.

Obviously pleroo "fulfilled" has more to do with bringing the law to a spiritual consummation in "Christ who is the end [end product, goal - love] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Romans 10:4), than it has to do with keeping every jot and tittle in the Torah. What Christ is saying is that when all is pleroo, the law will pass away.

And again, as noted prior, there is fulfillment of every jot and tittle of THE LAW, spiritually, in everyone who LOVES. When you see the LAW as it is meant to be seen, as Paul ‘defines’ same, there are no issues with the LETTER, only the understandings of same.

Has heaven or earth passed away? Why then are we not circumcising?

Because it is in fact A SPIRITUAL MATTER as again, Paul showed us. A matter of ‘internals’ not ‘externals.’ Romans 2:29

WAS the law of circumcision then done away with? Never. The ‘understanding’ of that matter CHANGED and directed us to the inward.

Anyway, if the Spirit helps me recall some more on this, I'll post it. It's my bed time. I must say though, that I think you are missing the "bigger picture" regarding the types and shadows concerning the law - as it relates to God's overall plan of the ages.

I’m actually quite fond of ‘types and shadows.’ I wouldn’t read a single letter of the O.T. without using that understanding.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. I at least hope you will be mature and polite about this disagreement and not resort to personal insults. I would expect personal jabs from some others, but not from you. Peace, and God bless.

I don’t think we’re that far off on our understandings. If you agree for example that the LAW contains types and shadows, and are a portend of the GOOD THINGS TO COME, there is much there to be seen and had by ALL and to the detriment of no believers, period.

s

 

[Davies]

Good morning,

The law of God is spiritual. It is so spiritual, Jesus gives us a better understanding of what the law means in the Sermon on the Mount. If the people of Jesus' time were guilt ridden, what do you think they felt after that sermon? Paul explains to us that he was a great sinner and God was long suffering towards him to show us a pattern for those being saved.

1 Timothy 1:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Romans 7:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

John 8:32 has pointed out nicely that our motivation for keeping the law has changed. Before, we kept the law to be right with God, but because we are no longer under the law, because of what Jesus has done for us, justified by His righteousness, we respond to the Gospel by loving God. Though we do not act or think perfectly, violating the law of God, we are not condemned, but the Spirit of God indwells us and empowers us to obey God or to love God, and we know those who love God will keep His commandments, imperfect as we still are(this does not negate our legal status before God having been given the righteousness of Jesus). We are still in these sinful bodies, and we are fighting the good fight. Empowered by the Holy Spirit, we obey the law of God, not to be right with Him, but because we have already been made right with Him by the blood of Jesus.

- Davies

 

[John 8:32]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The emphasis is on relationship, rather than the rules of the Law.



For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


If the law of aerodynamics makes you free from the law of gravity, it doesn't mean the law of gravity has been "put in check" for everybody else, it means you are operating in a law that transcends the law of gravity, for you.
The law of gravity is still in operation!


IF YOU TRY TO OPERATE IN THE LAW OF GRAVITY AND THE LAW OF AERODYNAMICS AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE SHIPWRECK!

Actually, this is not true, the laws of aerodynamics operate in harmony with the law of gravity and flight would not occur as we know it without the law of gravity. The laws of the universe, both spiritual and physical do not operate apart from each other, they operate in harmony with each other.

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


The emphasis is being filled with The Spirit, not trying to" keep the commandments"!


JLB

Well, then are you saying that whatever we do, we should not keep the commandments?

You are at odds with your Savior on this one...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Again, keeping the law does not earn salvation...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But this is not license to sin, it is forgiveness when we do sin.

 

[Mitspa]

so here I am standing in front of the Judge. He says to me, "you are guilty of first degree murder and the sentence is death". Now a wonderful Person steps up and says "I know that John 8:32 has committed all these sins, and I know he is guilty and I know he deserves to die, but I will take his punishment for him. I will go to the electric chair, gallows, gas chamber or whatever form of punishment in his place." so the Judge says "Alright, You will take his place", and that is exactly what happens. This wonderful Person dies in my stead, so now I am free to go commit murder again as many times as I want, correct? That is what your line of reasoning is saying here. Since Christ took the penalty for our sins, the law no longer applies to us. And you call what I said religious double talk?




Yes He filled it up full...

fulfill:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

I don't see one word in here that says it is done away or no longer in force.



I strive to obey all of the Commandments...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

John, the apostle of love, says that Christ takes away our sin, he does NOT say He took away the law which defines sin. You speak of the law as a bad thing, so a law against murder is a bad thing? A law against adultery, lying, stealing, lusting, dishonoring your parents is a bad thing? Having other gods before God is good? Having idols is good? Do you take God's name in vain? Probably not, it really all comes down to the fourth commandment doesn't it?

So you keep every jot and tittle? or is it just the 10 commandments your speaking of?

Please be clear! so all can learn how we are not under law yet we are to keep every jot and tittle? or what parts have you decided is still for the believer?

and also maybe you can explain how Christ did finished part of the law, but not all of it?

This should be good!

lol!

 

[John 8:32]

****deleted****

Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Davies,

We are still in these sinful bodies, and we are fighting the good fight. Empowered by the Holy Spirit, we obey THE LAW OF GOD, not to be right with Him, but because we have already been made right with Him by the blood of Jesus.

I couldn't agree more.

Here is what the scriptures tell us concerning the law of Moses and the law of God.


This is what the scriptures actually say concerning the law of Moses:


Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? IT WAS ADDED because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."


The law of Moses "was added?" To what was the law of Moses added? It was added as a temporary, parenthetical dispensation, to the unchanging spiritual law of love of God. The law of Moses was a "carnal commandment" for an exceedingly carnal nation.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe [the law of] Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, NOT AFTER THE LAW OF CARNAL COMMANDMENT, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a DISANNULLING of the [carnal] commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law [of Moses] made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

So by what law did they present offerings before Moses? It is clear from the story of Cain and Abel that God had already instructed mankind concerning how to offer offerings. If He had not then He could not have said, "if you do well will you not be received?" to Cain just before Cain killed Abel.


Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell."


Why would God not have respect to Cain and to Cain's offering if Cain had not, in some way disobeyed God's instructions concerning his offering. Cain did not see the need for shedding blood (symbolizing "dying" to the sinful flesh) in order to be received by God. Cain had not "done well" because Cain had not honored and obeyed his instructions, and so God says to Cain:


Genesis 4:6 "And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him [sin].
Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him."


"Sin lieth at the door" when we don't "do well." So Cain did not "do well", and Cain had "sin at the door."

Paul tells us this about the period between Adam and Moses and all time with all men who had not been instructed directly of God.

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves."

The law that existed between Adam and Moses certainly was not "the law of Christ" which was completely unknown until Christ.

Galatians 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the LAW OF CHRIST."

Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity A CHANGE also of the law."

Hebrews 9:10 "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."


Christ's reformation of the law becomes the law of Christ for this simple reason:

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."


"This generation" is the generation (ANY and ALL successive generations since Christ) reading these words of Christ. If we read and understand Christ's words, we fulfill them. His words are His law, and "they shall never pass away."

 

[Davies]

Hi Osgiliath,

"The law of Moses is not spiritual, and we are specifically told that it is "the letter," and "the letter" is contrasted with "the spirit."" - Osgiliath

I felt it was necessary to highlight the Bible explicity states the law of God is spiritual.

Romans 7:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:7

New International Version (NIV)

7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

The law of God was never meant to be a means to attain communion with God, rather it was meant to bring us guilty to the cross, humbled. I know a lot of proud Christians who need to be humbled. Yes, I would include myself.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

So I guess you are saying that there is no law? That anarchy is God's way? That murder, adultery, lying, stealing, lusting and dishonoring our parents is how we should live?

What? Of course some cannot understand how a REAL CHRISTIAN serves God by the law of faith, as Abraham did.
the Royal Law is the Commandment of Christ that we lave as He has loved us!

John clearly makes these two commandments clear, the Fathers commandment is to believe on His Son and to lave as He gave commandment, Paul said simply that nothing profits anything but faith working by love!


Now is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which Paul refers to as the law of Christ, I think that might be a little too deep for you now! But I have a thread on walking in the Spirit that might help you to understand the law of the Spirit?
Some cannot grasp anything but fear, guilt and shame!
They cannot understand that our relationship and obedience is based upon Gods goodness and love for us?

A man will serve God better and seperate himself from sin because of love! Love is the highest motive for obedience that any man can ever have enter his heart! we will serve those we love, such as our children, because we love them!

But somehow we cannot understand that God is in fact LOVE And until one serves Him by Love apart from fear. YOU DO NOT KNOW GOD!

sorry all your law keeping means nothing until you keep it by love!

I do not steal because I love and think of how I can give to others!

I do not covet, because God has blessed me beyond what I ever have deserved! I rejoice when others are blessed!

I dont not look upon anothers wife, but I pray that God might forever keep that marriage!

I do not take advantage or lust for young woman because I know My Lord loves and honors them as his own!

I could Go on but I hope I have made my point?

You who do not love as Christ loves you, have never came close to ever fulfilling any commandment at anytime!

 

[smaller]

Typical christian hypocrisy.

Whine about others following Law while simultaneously following same.

What? Of course some cannot understand how a REAL CHRISTIAN serves God by the law of faith, as Abraham did.
the Royal Law is the Commandment of Christ that we lave as He has loved us!

John clearly makes these two commandments clear, the Fathers commandment is to believe on His Son and to lave as He gave commandment, Paul said simply that nothing profits anything but faith working by love!


Now is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which Paul refers to as the law of Christ, I think that might be a little too deep for you now! But I have a thread on walking in the Spirit that might help you to understand the law of the Spirit?
Some cannot grasp anything but fear, guilt and shame!
They cannot understand that our relationship and obedience is based upon Gods goodness and love for us?

A man will serve God better and seperate himself from sin because of love! Love is the highest motive for obedience that any man can ever have enter his heart! we will serve those we love, such as our children, because we love them!

But somehow we cannot understand that God is in fact LOVE And until one serves Him by Love apart from fear. YOU DO NOT KNOW GOD!

sorry all your law keeping means nothing until you keep it by love!

I do not steal because I love and think of how I can give to others!

I do not covet, because God has blessed me beyond what I ever have deserved! I rejoice when others are blessed!

I dont not look upon anothers wife, but I pray that God might forever keep that marriage!

I do not take advantage or lust for young woman because I know My Lord loves and honors them as his own!

I could Go on but I hope I have made my point?

You who do not love as Christ loves you, have never came close to ever fulfilling any commandment at anytime!

 

[smaller]

Taking the example of Jesus and the AMPLIFICATION of Law to it's most logical extent on the 'dire' side of the ledgers and applying that standard 'personally' even the 'thought' of sin is sin.

Jesus showed this fact in Matthew 5:28, and I'd venture every 'male' in this thread has had their 'engagements' with this type of 'internal sin' without having to provide the fleshly details of the matters.

And who has not lusted after the car that Stove Bolts has in his posts? I sure have. Nice.

Get the point about LAW? It's the major aspect of same, at least on one side of the ledgers. It points to the fact that we all 'factually' have 'internal issues' with sin regardless of how we paint up the exterior. It's an even worse matter to 'lie' about it because then sin has turned us into liars. ouch. I really don't care to go there myself.

Paul delineates this matter of internal SIN in Romans 7 when the law that says DO NOT LUST produced within himself, WITHIN himself, every manner of concupiscence.

That's THE LAW OF THE LETTER reacting adversely with SIN.

And it can NOT be halted. It is in fact an INVIOLATE LAW that Paul again defines clearly in Romans 7:21 stating, as a fact, that EVIL was present with him.

That is the LETTER OF THE LAW proving itself FULLY TRUE and FULLY APPLICABLE to this day in it's PERPETUALLY ADVERSARIAL RELATIONSHIP to indwelling sin.

The difficulty is when we are led into the deception that we can make that EVIL PRESENT obedient and LAWFUL when in fact that is just another avenue of LIE.

Commence tail chasing.

s

 

[Mitspa]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

The emphasis is on relationship, rather than the rules of the Law.



For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2


If the law of aerodynamics makes you free from the law of gravity, it doesn't mean the law of gravity has been "put in check" for everybody else, it means you are operating in a law that transcends the law of gravity, for you.
The law of gravity is still in operation!


IF YOU TRY TO OPERATE IN THE LAW OF GRAVITY AND THE LAW OF AERODYNAMICS AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE SHIPWRECK!


...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


The emphasis is being filled with The Spirit, not trying to" keep the commandments"!


JLB

Its kinda like trying to explain a rainbow or a sunset to someone who has been blind from birth?

This why Paul said that the natural mind, cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

Bu we are not really talking or trying to convert these that we are in discussion with?

God is using them to show the error of those who claim that we as believers are yet under the yoke of the law!

They are doing very well at proving God positions!

And you my brother are a very able defender of our Beloved Christ, and The Gospel of His Glory!

Blessing and abounding grace to you in the Name of Jesus!

 

[Mitspa]

Good morning,

The law of God is spiritual. It is so spiritual, Jesus gives us a better understanding of what the law means in the Sermon on the Mount. If the people of Jesus' time were guilt ridden, what do you think they felt after that sermon? Paul explains to us that he was a great sinner and God was long suffering towards him to show us a pattern for those being saved.

1 Timothy 1:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Romans 7:14

New King James Version (NKJV)

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

John 8:32 has pointed out nicely that our motivation for keeping the law has changed. Before, we kept the law to be right with God, but because we are no longer under the law, because of what Jesus has done for us, justified by His righteousness, we respond to the Gospel by loving God. Though we do not act or think perfectly, violating the law of God, we are not condemned, but the Spirit of God indwells us and empowers us to obey God or to love God, and we know those who love God will keep His commandments, imperfect as we still are(this does not negate our legal status before God having been given the righteousness of Jesus). We are still in these sinful bodies, and we are fighting the good fight. Empowered by the Holy Spirit, we obey the law of God, not to be right with Him, but because we have already been made right with Him by the blood of Jesus.

- Davies

My friend and brother in Christ, good to hear from you again!

I see you have avoided my last post to you? I guess I have now become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

That is no new thing for us who preach Pauls Gospel! I have lost many that was dear to me because Of the things I preach!
Look at my threads? I declare these things boldly wherever I go! I have been given the left foot of fellowship so many times its no longer an issue to make religious folks mad for sake of the truth.

You say the law does not condemn? yet your last post showed the condemnation and guilt that is a great yoke upon you!

Come and learn of Me, for My yoke is easy and My burden is light -saith the Lord His Commandments are not burdensome?

yet you are under a heavy yoke? Could it be your pride and religious traditions have deceived you?

You claim you are justified and yet a sinner? Paul was not claiming that he was a sinner! He was saying that as religious as he was he was a killer of the innocent!

He was saying what I have been saying? that of myself I am nothing, the worst of sinners! I do not nor did Paul need the law any longer to show me my need for Christ, but after faith has come we cast out the bondwoman!

We are now justified freely by His Grace! how can we who are justified By Christ be found sinners by the law!

I tell you, I am in doubt of you! your faith will not endure, you will turn away from true faith if you do not turn from law and see only Christ!

It is better for you to walk away now? unless the law turns you into a hypocrite. like many who live in sin, and then go condemn others with law. Thier conscience so defiled by hypocricy that it does not bother them in the least to break the law in one place and then condemn others with the law!

Better that a man was never saved than to burn with the pharisees.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Davies,

The law of God was never meant to be a means to attain communion with God, rather it was meant to bring us guilty to the cross, humbled. I know a lot of proud Christians who need to be humbled. Yes, I would include myself.

Indeed, me as well. ALL of us need to be humbled frequently until (as you have said) we are no longer in this sinful flesh.

Now we are dead and raised up with Christ in "the earnest of our inheritance". Even though we are dead and buried and resurrected with Christ "in earnest", we still have "the redemption of the purchased possession", to anticipate:

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
Romans 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."


When are we to be "in the likeness of His resurrection"?

Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."


It is spoken (above) of in spirit, as an accomplished fact. But this is only in the "sealed with the holy spirit of promise" form at this time, "until the redemption of the purchased possession."

Ephesians 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [the actual resurrection], unto the praise of his glory."




And yes; the Law of God is indeed Spiritual. I wanted to address the fact that the law of Moses was added as a temporary, parenthetical dispensation, to the unchanging spiritual law of love of God. The law of Moses was a "carnal commandment" for an exceedingly carnal nation.


Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? IT WAS ADDED because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe [the law of] Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, NOT AFTER THE LAW OF CARNAL COMMANDMENT, but after the power of an endless life.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a DISANNULLING of the [carnal] commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Hebrews 7:19 For the law [of Moses] made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



Galatians 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the LAW OF CHRIST."

Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity A CHANGE also of the law."

Hebrews 9:10 "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."