Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Just out of curiosity, Hopeful, you do realize that God moved all of the biblical scribes write exactly what He
wanted written, exactly how He wanted it written: it is one completely integrated book through all of its
chapter and verse. Otherwise, we would not be able to place the full and complete weight of our trust upon it.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am well aware of God's influence on the passing down of His word through the ages.
Words like..."That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:17)

That is why I know the words in 1 John 1 are true.

 

[Hopeful]

No, that is not what it means, and you've taken undue liberty with that verse.
It says that he cannot sin.

You are both right.

As with any birth, it can only occur once, not multiple time.

Ever heard of rebirth?

 

[rogerg]

I am well aware of God's influence on the passing down of His word through the ages.

Not to be a pain in the you know what, but your reply seemed, if you won't mind me saying so,
a little non-specific. So, did you intend to use the word "influence" as equal in force to "moved", or did you
intend it as something of less force - with "moved" meaning that
God had the scribes to write precisely what He wanted in Scripture?

 

[RBDERRICK]

No, that is not what it means, and you've taken undue liberty with that verse.
It says that he cannot sin.
As with any birth, it can only occur once, not multiple time.

I have always noticed the one main difference between saints and sinners: we read all Scripture with condemnation of sinning, and Jesus' deliverance therefrom, while you find in any Scripture a way to keep sinning and still be saved and justified by Jesus.

You're no = no sinning is not unique, but just not quite stated so blatantly.

I'll add it to the notes of OSAS.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I know my God and I know the Scriptures, your personal attacks mean nothing to me.

I don't do personal attacks, which is obvious from my words. I only do correction and identification of false doctrine.

You see, we cannot possibly be good ground for Christ, until we are honest with ourselves. I have simply seen your kind of idealism over obedience before.

You state plainly that you do not believe the simple commandant of loving God with all the heart, mind, and soul is possible. You call it imaginative 24/7 perfectionism.

You accuse God of commanding believers to do what you declare is not possible, by accusing them that do it as self-righteous imagination.

You're last response shows you are not willing to be corrected, and instead declare such teaching to be a personal attack against you: you are offended by it, because it does not conform to your idealized Christianity with still sinning from time to time.

When I was first confronted with the doctrine of purifying our hearts and casting down all unrighteous thoughts for sins, I did not denounce it as an attack, but rather was surprised by it, and asked the simple question: is it really possible to do so in Christ.

God showed me Himself, Yes. Not only possible, but necessary for my own soul's sake.

I simply was never a believer in OSAS, and so never allowed myself to be convinced that anything short of God's glory is acceptable.

You really must consider something simple: Since Jesus is God's glory, then them that recieve Him with a wide-open, no reservations heart, recieve all of God's glory within.

Sinning and falling short of God's glory is not a confirming excuse for God's people to be sinning, but rather only speaks of sinful man who needs God's glory within them to stop being sinning enemies of God.

Jesus came and died and shed His blood on the cross for that purpose.

My recommendation to you, is that you cease engaging others in doctrinal disputes, at least until you have grown enough not to act like you are being personally attacked by opposing doctrine.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are both right.

Ever heard of rebirth?

If you mean no one can possibly be sinning, and be born of God, at the same time, I agree.

But I believe the other was saying something completely different: There is a tenet of OSAS, where the law of God on paper no longer exists, so that man can no longer transgress that law, so long as they are not keeping themselves under it, seeking to do what is written on paper.

By declaring the law of God to be dead on paper, they remove themselves from doing it as written: they even go so far as to denounce those doing so as self-righteously decieved, as well as, God forbid!, not trusting in the work of Christ already done on the cross.

It is a very subtle delusion, because the result is to become a law unto ourselves, where we only live by faith from within, and not by any objective outside letters on paper, even the ones in Scripture.

It truly is unique and a masterful deception of the wicked one: we all live by our own faith within only, and there is no law on paper that can accuse nor condemn us: Thus, we are delivered from the law of Scripture and the condemnation of the law, not from transgressing the word written in Scripture.

But, as with all lies of the devil, it begins with one single glaring fault, such as "Ye shall surely die", which in this case is that the law of Moses on paper is old and gone with the OT, but not the law of CHrist on paper for the NT: There is still law of God written with ink on paper that defines and condemns transgression thereof.

All men are still held accountable and judged by the law of God in Scripture, which today is that of Christ written by His apostles.

Those who do know Him and keep His commandments, to do His word and law with a pure heart, don't need to daily remind ourselves of what is written, as perhaps them of old, but the law is still there just in case there is a dispute about what is written and what is not.

There are three main reason for the law of Christ being codified in Scripture, and not only in our hearts and minds:

1. To put to silence the hypocrites.
2. To correct them of faith.
3. To put to silence those who add to His law their own traditions and commandments, as did the Pharisees.

There also is a 4th I believe is true: God does not write His law in our minds all at once with newbirth, but rather only promises to do so as we continue to read and learn and do it in our lives.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7)

Afterall, if the whole law and word were written in our minds all at once, then why need to read it, much less learn anything from it? We would already know it all.

We must still hide the word in our hearts, as the prophet declares, but with the blood and Spirit of Christ, every single little child of God can do so: it is no more reserved only for the prophetic few:

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD. (Jerem 31)

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12)

The last days and time of the end began with His resurrection, and are still here:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (1 John 2)

The good thing about realizing our times and days are really nothing so special, over any other times and days, is that we simply understand we are supposed to be that way: it's not unique but simply necessary. It also deflates pride in being some sort of last days guru.

One declared to me the 'last Elijah'. I laughed. I haven't heard from them since. (I hope I wasn't wrong)

 

[rogerg]

I have always noticed the one main difference between saints and sinners: we read all Scripture with condemnation of sinning, and Jesus' deliverance therefrom, while you find in any Scripture a way to keep sinning and still be saved and justified by Jesus.

You're no = no sinning is not unique, but just not quite stated so blatantly.

1) Everyone has come short of the glory of God, even you, though you don't realize it.
2) You obviously have no grasp of God's mercy and grace.
3) You obviously have no understanding of the doctrine of a Saviour nor of what the Saviour has achieved
4) Because you are void in the wisdom and knowledge of the above, you've ended up
with the desire to make yourself righteous before God through law, which righteousness, you will never realize.
.

 

[RBDERRICK]

1) Everyone has come short of the glory of God, even you, though you don't realize it.
2) You obviously have no grasp of God's mercy and grace.
3) You obviously have no understanding of the doctrine of a Saviour nor of what the Saviour has achieved
4) Because you are void in the wisdom and knowledge of the above, you've ended up
with the desire to make yourself righteous before God through law, which righteousness, you will never realize.
.

Spoken like a true committed OSAS sinner. In the end, it's always the same childish taunts:

"Hey! You're a big fat sinner, just like the rest of us!!!

Though, of course, I tend to strip things of their flowers, and just say it like it is.

 

[RBDERRICK]

1) Everyone has come short of the glory of God, even you, though you don't realize it.
2) You obviously have no grasp of God's mercy and grace.
3) You obviously have no understanding of the doctrine of a Saviour nor of what the Saviour has achieved
4) Because you are void in the wisdom and knowledge of the above, you've ended up
with the desire to make yourself righteous before God through law, which righteousness, you will never realize.
.

"1) Everyone has come short of the glory of God, even you, though you don't realize it."

Everyone has, not everyone is.

That Scripture written by Paul was after the resurrection of Jesus. Some people use it like a fail-safe excuse for sinning, as though Jesus came short also.

Since the Scripture plainly does not apply to all men, since it does not include the man Jesus Christ, then it must only be speaking of those sinning and falling short, and cannot include Jesus nor those those in Christ Jesus not sinning.

"2) You obviously have no grasp of God's mercy and grace."

Sinners never stop to think that God's mercy and grace is to not being sinning.

The grace of God is the helper to not be sinning, not a cover for sinning.

"3) You obviously have no understanding of the doctrine of a Saviour nor of what the Saviour has achieved."

What Jesus' achieved' in the days of His flesh, was for the purpose of His people 'achieving' with Him in the days of our flesh: not sinning like Him, but rather walking in His steps hand in hand.

And since that is called an 'achievement', that means being saved is an 'achievement' for them that do so as He did so.

"4) Because you are void in the wisdom and knowledge of the above, you've ended up
with the desire to make yourself righteous before God through law, which righteousness, you will never realize."

The wisdom to keep on sinning? Not the wisdom that is from above:

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (James 3)
.
And so, you see once again the opposing eyes of sinners and saints in reading of Scripture: the former has only eyes for sinning, and the later has no eyes for sinning.

 

[Hopeful]

Not to be a pain in the you know what, but your reply seemed, if you won't mind me saying so,
a little non-specific. So, did you intend to use the word "influence" as equal in force to "moved", or did you
intend it as something of less force - with "moved" meaning that
God had the scribes to write precisely what He wanted in Scripture?

They are the same thing.

 

[rogerg]

They are the same thing.

Okay, thank you

 

[Hopeful]

If you mean no one can possibly be sinning, and be born of God, at the same time, I agree.

Good.
God's seed cannot bring forth evil fruit.

But I believe the other was saying something completely different: There is a tenet of OSAS, where the law of God on paper no longer exists, so that man can no longer transgress that law, so long as they are not keeping themselves under it, seeking to do what is written on paper.
By declaring the law of God to be dead on paper, they remove themselves from doing it as written: they even go so far as to denounce those doing so as self-righteously decieved, as well as, God forbid!, not trusting in the work of Christ already done on the cross.
It is a very subtle delusion, because the result is to become a law unto ourselves, where we only live by faith from within, and not by any objective outside letters on paper, even the ones in Scripture.

Suicide by scripture, is what that is.

It truly is unique and a masterful deception of the wicked one: we all live by our own faith within only, and there is no law on paper that can accuse nor condemn us: Thus, we are delivered from the law of Scripture and the condemnation of the law, not from transgressing the word written in Scripture.

Like a false prophet, we can tell false doctrines by their fruit.

But, as with all lies of the devil, it begins with one single glaring fault, such as "Ye shall surely die", which in this case is that the law of Moses on paper is old and gone with the OT, but not the law of CHrist on paper for the NT: There is still law of God written with ink on paper that defines and condemns transgression thereof.
All men are still held accountable and judged by the law of God in Scripture, which today is that of Christ written by His apostles.
Those who do know Him and keep His commandments, to do His word and law with a pure heart, don't need to daily remind ourselves of what is written, as perhaps them of old, but the law is still there just in case there is a dispute about what is written and what is not.

OK.

There are three main reason for the law of Christ being codified in Scripture, and not only in our hearts and minds:
1. To put to silence the hypocrites.
2. To correct them of faith.
3. To put to silence those who add to His law their own traditions and commandments, as did the Pharisees.
There also is a 4th I believe is true: God does not write His law in our minds all at once with newbirth, but rather only promises to do so as we continue to read and learn and do it in our lives.

I agree with the first three points, but not the fourth.
The new creature has a finely honed conscience that knows what is or is not love.
We do all grow in grace and knowledge as we study and mature, but we also all start from a holy, pure position too.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7)
After all, if the whole law and word were written in our minds all at once, then why need to read it, much less learn anything from it? We would already know it all.

How many years passed before the bible was widely available?
They didn't have the scriptures to consult at their leisure, and they remained pure.

We must still hide the word in our hearts, as the prophet declares, but with the blood and Spirit of Christ, every single little child of God can do so: it is no more reserved only for the prophetic few:
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD. (Jerem 31)
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12)
The last days and time of the end began with His resurrection, and are still here:
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (1 John 2)
The good thing about realizing our times and days are really nothing so special, over any other times and days, is that we simply understand we are supposed to be that way: it's not unique but simply necessary. It also deflates pride in being some sort of last days guru.

One declared to me the 'last Elijah'. I laughed. I haven't heard from them since. (I hope I wasn't wrong)

OK.
Keep praying.

 

[crossnote]

You state plainly that you do not believe the simple commandant of loving God with all the heart, mind, and soul is possible. You call it imaginative 24/7 perfectionism.

I didn't say I didn't believe the command, only that it is a standard which debunks perfectionism.

 

[Hopeful]

I didn't say I didn't believe the command, only that it is a standard which debunks perfectionism.

You don't love God with all your heart, mind and soul?
I do, and I am not alone; so it is not a debunking of perfect obedience to God.
Thanks be to God.
Why strive for 60 or 80%?
Wouldn't they be as impossible as 100%?

 

[crossnote]

You don't love God with all your heart, mind and soul?
I do, and I am not alone; so it is not a debunking of perfect obedience to God.
Thanks be to God.
Why strive for 60 or 80%?
Wouldn't they be as impossible as 100%?

Do you love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength…all the time..24/7?
I can’t say I do, (but I know the One who did), that’s why I have a Savior named Jesus Christ who died for all my sins and has robed me in His righteousness, my only hope on that day.

 

[Hopeful]

Do you love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength…all the time?
I can’t say I do, that’s why I have a Savior named Jesus Christ who died for all my sins and has robed me in His righteousness, my only hope on that day.

Yes, all the time.
I have a Savior named Jesus Christ who died for my sins and enabled me to be reborn of His Father's seed.
He enabled me to cast off the flesh and to start walking in the Spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I find that generally Christians don't argue against works UNLESS the other side is trying to make a case that one is justified by works. Good topic.

I find that those who argue against works don’t want to have to do any. They use terms like “should” and not “must.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It ought to be considered that Gods sees or recognizes that we love Him as we keep His teachings, or do His will, not the degree of warm mushy feelings we have. It is also not something accredited to us by Jesus’ love for the Father.

“If you love Me, keep (do) my teachings” John 14:15

 

[rogerg]

I find that those who argue against works don’t want to have to do any. They use terms like “should” and not “must.”

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

I find that those who argue against works don’t want to have to do any. They use terms like “should” and not “must.”

[Rom 3:19-22 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[Rom 3:23-24 KJV]
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: