Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

[Rom 3:19-22 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[Rom 3:23-24 KJV]
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

 

[rogerg]

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Yes, and a trust in works of law for justification is the bad, not the good

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, and a trust in works of law for justification is the bad, not the good

A trust in doing nothing is like the servant who buried what he got. He was called “lazy” not faithful.

 

[rogerg]

A trust in doing nothing is like the servant who buried what he got. He was called “lazy” not faithful.

To do something to be justified is a work but no one can/will be saved by trusting their works. They will only find judgment.
That is why Christ has the title of Saviour: because He must be the one to save - we are to trust only in his completed work, not ours

 

[rogerg]

A trust in doing nothing is like the servant who buried what he got. He was called “lazy” not faithful.

Did you understand the verses that I posted to you earlier?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Did you understand the verses that I posted to you earlier?

Very much so. Do you that that Jesus said that those who love Jesus keep his teaching? Do you know that those who keep his teaching the father will love and they will come and dwell in them? Do you understand this?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

To do something to be justified is a work but no one can/will be saved by trusting their works. They will only find judgment.
That is why Christ has the title of Saviour: because He must be the one to save - we are to trust only in his completed work, not ours

You missed the point. There are those who keep Jesus teaching NOT IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED but because they love Him. Do you see the difference?

 

[rogerg]

Very much so. Do you that that Jesus said that those who love Jesus keep his teaching? Do you know that those who keep his teaching the father will love and they will come and dwell in them? Do you understand this?

To trust in Christ's finished work IS His teaching. To be able to trust solely in Christ is given by God as a gift

 

[Dorothy Mae]

To trust in Christ's finished work IS His teaching. To be able to trust solely in Christ is given by God as a gift

So chapter after chapter of the sermon on the mount you ignore? No “forgive others to be forgiven,”no judgement between sheep and goats, no seeking the Kingdom of God, just believe Jesus finished it so you can do nothing like the servant who did nothing?

 

[rogerg]

You missed the point. There are those who keep Jesus teaching NOT IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIFIED but because they love Him. Do you see the difference?

Oh, absolutely and I would totally agree with that but to be justified before God is the ultimate gift. Besides that,
to show we love Him we are to share the gospel of mercy and grace, not works

 

[rogerg]

So chapter after chapter of the sermon on the mount you ignore? No “forgive others to be forgiven,”no judgement between sheep and goats, no seeking the Kingdom of God, just believe Jesus finished it so you can do nothing like the servant who did nothing?

Then you are saying that we are to save ourselves?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh, absolutely and I would totally agree with that but to be justified before God is the ultimate gift. Besides that,
to show we love Him we are to share the gospel of mercy and grace, not works

No it’s not the ultimate gift and the Bible doesn’t support that it is. This is eternal life, that they KNOW You, the One True God, not they they are justified and escaped hell.

Knowing and understanding God is the ultimate gift.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then you are saying that we are to save ourselves?

Do you not see that there is more than being justified?

Besides, Jesus says point blank, if we don’t forgive others God WILL NOT forgive us. I mean you can argue with those verses and say your particular sins are washed away and justified by his blood whether you forgive others or not. You can make those words of Jesus into “saving yourself” and so relief yourself of that obligation. But I seriously doubt Jesus buys the weaseling out of that very fair requirement when you stand before him. I doubt that argument will pull the wool over his eyes.

 

[rogerg]

Knowing and understanding God is the ultimate gift.

That comes from being saved, it doesn't lead to becoming saved. Wisdom is given to those saved
as a fruit of the Spirit:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[1Co 3:19 KJV] 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[[1Co 12:8 KJV] 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

 

[rogerg]

Besides, Jesus says point blank, if we don’t forgive others God WILL NOT forgive us.

That forgiveness is through the sharing of the gospel, which only those who have become saved are able to do
because they have been made wise through the Holy Spirit. The sin is to not trust in the efficacy of Christ's offering.
If someone doesn't preach that gospel, then they haven't become saved either and therefore, their sin has not yet been forgiven.

 

[Hopeful]

[Rom 3:19-22 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[Rom 3:23-24 KJV]
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Thanks for making it clear again that the "works" Paul was against were the "works" of the Mosaic Law (and customs).
Repenting, baptism, and refusing temptations are not "works" at all.
They are the results of a changed heart.

 

[rogerg]

Thanks for making it clear again that the "works" Paul was against were the "works" of the Mosaic Law (and customs).
Repenting, baptism, and refusing temptations are not "works" at all.
They are the results of a changed heart.

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That comes from being saved, it doesn't lead to becoming saved. Wisdom is given to those saved
as a fruit of the Spirit:

It’s quite rare in those who are saved and it doesn’t come from being saved. It comes from seeking to know Him once saved. It comes from obeying Him. For those who come so far, being saved actually hardly matters any more.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[1Co 3:19 KJV] 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
[[1Co 12:8 KJV] 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

If we keep his teaching (conditional promise,) the Father will love us and they will come and dwell in us. It’s far from automatic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That forgiveness is through the sharing of the gospel, which only those who have become saved are able to do
because they have been made wise through the Holy Spirit. The sin is to not trust in the efficacy of Christ's offering.
If someone doesn't preach that gospel, then they haven't become saved either and therefore, their sin has not yet been forgiven.

Where did Jesus say forgiveness comes from sharing the gospel?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks for making it clear again that the "works" Paul was against were the "works" of the Mosaic Law (and customs).
Repenting, baptism, and refusing temptations are not "works" at all.
They are the results of a changed heart.

So if one gives in to temptations is the heart not changed so the person not saved?

I’m not messing with you. If It is believed that a changed heart, passive voice, means temptation is resisted, how do we explained giving in to temptation?