Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

It’s quite rare in those who are saved and it doesn’t come from being saved. It comes from seeking to know Him once saved. It comes from obeying Him. For those who come so far, being saved actually hardly matters any more.

Don't think so:
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[D-D-W]

Then you are saying that we are to save ourselves?

I know I am late to this discussion, but - OY!

How is obeying our Lord "saving ourselves?" Obedience to His Word is how we live AFTER we get saved and has nothing to do with our being saved.

If you have children, do they have to obey you in order to BE your children? Or do they have to obey you because you are their parent? Its the same thing.

 

[Hopeful]

So if one gives in to temptations is the heart not changed so the person not saved?

As our salvation will be awarded on the last day, it is superfluous to even say we are saved until that day of judgement.
If a supposedly converted person shows they are not converted, they are not converted.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As our salvation will be awarded on the last day, it is superfluous to even say we are saved until that day of judgement.
If a supposedly converted person shows they are not converted, they are not converted.

So do you measure conversion by?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Don't think so:
[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Ask christian’s here how many can explain what God does, what He doesn’t do and why on both accounts. Knowing and understanding God is not a scriptural promise we can read and claim it’s true of us.

 

[Hopeful]

I know I am late to this discussion, but - OY

Welcome to the party.

How is obeying our Lord "saving ourselves?" Obedience to His Word is how we live AFTER we get saved and has nothing to do with our being saved.

Obedience will eventually translate to salvation.

If you have children, do they have to obey you in order to BE your children? Or do they have to obey you because you are their parent? Its the same thing.

The answer to both questions is "yes".
If God has children, do they have to obey Him to be His children?
Of course.
Otherwise they are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
If God has children do they have to obey Him because He is their Father?
Yes, as the obedience shows they are His children.

 

[Hopeful]

So do you measure conversion by?

I'll guess you meant to write..."How do you measure conversion?"
The fruit !
Like we can measure a prophet by his fruit, so too can we measure men and women by their fruit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'll guess you meant to write..."How do you measure conversion?"
The fruit !
Like we can measure a prophet by his fruit, so too can we measure men and women by their fruit.

So no fruit means no conversion?

 

[D-D-W]

As our salvation will be awarded on the last day, it is superfluous to even say we are saved until that day of judgement.
If a supposedly converted person shows they are not converted, they are not converted.

1 John stands in opposition to that point:

1 John 5:10 NKJV
He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

Our being regenerated, saved, or born again, however you wish to call it, gives us this witness. And in John 3 our Lord told Nicodemus that one could not even see the Kingdom, let alone be part of it, until he is born again. So that is in THIS LIFE; it does not wait for the final judgement.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hopeful, Essentially I agree, but it’s fairly complex because people are also on their way both increasing and decreasing in the faith. It’s not that simple.

But we really fool ourselves if we think we can read a Bible verse and claim that describes us or others “by faith.” It’s better to love the truth.

 

[Hopeful]

So no fruit means no conversion?

Of course.
Like Jesus' parables about fig trees cannot bear grapes and grape vines cannot bear figs, so too the converted cannot bring forth the fruit of that from which they are alleged converted.

 

[Hopeful]

1 John stands in opposition to that point:

1 John 5:10 NKJV
He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

If anything, that statement supports my point.

Our being regenerated, saved, or born again, however you wish to call it, gives us this witness. And in John 3 our Lord told Nicodemus that one could not even see the Kingdom, let alone be part of it, until he is born again. So that is in THIS LIFE; it does not wait for the final judgement.

I will wait until my judgement to start saying I am saved.
I will, however, show my conversion until I am called home as a testimony of the truth of God.

I will pose you a question...
Do those with "the witness" in them tell lies, steal, and commit adultery?

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful, Essentially I agree, but it’s fairly complex because people are also on their way both increasing and decreasing in the faith. It’s not that simple.

But we really fool ourselves if we think we can read a Bible verse and claim that describes us or others “by faith.” It’s better to love the truth.

Amen to that.
But remember that those increasing and decreasing have all started from a new base-point.
That being, new creatures born of God' seed.
They all have a new divine nature, and the gift of the Holy Ghost to help them on their journey.
Their "fruit" should manifest that.

 

[rogerg]

How is obeying our Lord "saving ourselves?" Obedience to His Word is how we live AFTER we get saved and has nothing to do with our being saved.

It doesn't, but neither does it lead to eternal salvation, and being saved for eternity is the primary hope of all - at least for those who deeply consider it.

Christians are to do good works but NOT to see those works as something that can leverage salvation as if
some kind of spiritual tender - doing truly good works comes from becoming saved, they are not a pathway to it.

If you have children, do they have to obey you in order to BE your children? Or do they have to obey you because you are their parent? Its the same thing.

No, I don't think so. God adopts those (and only those) whom He chose to salvation before the foundation
of the world His true spiritual children. First-and-foremost in importance to God is for those whom He has saved
to share the gospel of Christ.

[1Co 3:11 KJV] 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Ask christian’s here how many can explain what God does, what He doesn’t do and why on both accounts. Knowing and understanding God is not a scriptural promise we can read and claim it’s true of us.

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2Co 11:4 KJV] 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

 

[crossnote]

I find that those who argue against works don’t want to have to do any. They use terms like “should” and not “must.”

'Must' applies to all the commandments/law as the purpose of the law is to show us our sinfulness.

(Rom 5:20) Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

 

[Hopeful]

'Must' applies to all the commandments/law as the purpose of the law is to show us our sinfulness.

(Rom 5:20) Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

...and that "abounding grace" allows us to turn from our old ways.
Thanks be to God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2Co 11:4 KJV] 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Huh? How does this address the scripture and subsequent attached question? Understanding the Gospel (easy) doesn’t mean one knows and understands God (difficult and actually impossible on your own.)

You know, we are supposed to love God with our minds, not just protect ourselves from thinking at all by quoting someone else even Bible verses.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

'Must' applies to all the commandments/law as the purpose of the law is to show us our sinfulness.

(Rom 5:20) Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Actually the purpose of the law is so that we treat each other justly. That’s the purpose of every good law and still is. When you suffer because someone broke the law, you don’t say, “see, you’re a lawbreaker. I’m glad the law is there so you finally realized this.”

 

[Hopeful]

Huh? How does this address the scripture and subsequent attached question? Understanding the Gospel (easy) doesn’t mean one knows and understands God (difficult and actually impossible on your own.)

You know, we are supposed to love God with our minds, not just protect ourselves from thinking at all by quoting someone else even Bible verses.

I feel he was addressing just one of the aspects of God.
But God has so may aspects that total knowledge is quite inestimable.