Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

It doesn't, but neither does it lead to eternal salvation, and being saved for eternity is the primary hope of all - at least for those who deeply consider it.

Not so. It is the primary hope of those who only of themselves. It wasn’t, for example, the primary hope of Paul or Moses. Would you like scripture for that?

Christians are to do good works but NOT to see those works as something that can leverage salvation as if
some kind of spiritual tender - doing truly good works comes from becoming saved, they are not a pathway to it.

In order to move into the full stature of Christ, one needs to move beyond the elementary matters such as being saved (forgiveness of sins.) It’s like a woman focusing solely on her wedding day decades after being married.

No, I don't think so. God adopts those (and only those) whom He chose to salvation before the foundation
of the world His true spiritual children.

Ah, Calvinism.

First-and-foremost in importance to God is for those whom He has saved
to share the gospel of Christ.

[1Co 3:11 KJV] 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

First and foremost in importance to God is obeying Him,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I feel he was addressing just one of the aspects of God.
But God has so may aspects that total knowledge is quite inestimable.

Ok but it would have been better if had said something he thought.

The point in any endeavor to understand either man, a matter or God is coming to a place where one has true understanding, that is, what one thinks matches what is. No one sets up the goal of total knowledge in pursing understanding. The goal is true knowledge however much one has.This alone is remarkable to experience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You know Hopeful, for one, I really like your modest name. Says something about you. You didn’t pick a lofty “I am great for Him” name but a gentle humble one. You have my respect.

Second, understanding God is, I think, the most rewarding experience a human can have. It is the pearl of great price which costs the seeker a great deal. It is never granted as attributed to having because of Christ. It’s either real in one’s thinking or it is not there. There is no “I understand God no matter what I think about Him because of Jesus.”

The only path is obedience to His directions to you personally. And we are talking years of this. But it’s totally worth it, more than worth it.

“God hides himself from the wise and intelligent (Christians) and reveals himself to babes.”

 

[rogerg]

Huh? How does this address the scripture and subsequent attached question? Understanding the Gospel (easy) doesn’t mean one knows and understands God (difficult and actually impossible on your own.)

You know, we are supposed to love God with our minds, not just protect ourselves from thinking at all by quoting someone else even Bible verses.

On the surface, your question appears illogical. If you're asking who can know God fully and completely, of course, no one can and it is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be asked, but can we know His will in terms of salvation? We can if that understanding is given as a gift -- but it is only as a result of salvation, not leading to it.
If this doesn't answer you, restate because I don't understand.

 

[rogerg]

In order to move into the full stature of Christ, one needs to move beyond the elementary matters such as being saved (forgiveness of sins.) It’s like a woman focusing solely on her wedding day decades after being married.

Okay, so then you're saying we saved solely by grace - that God alone does the saving - and we contribute nothing to it - all God's work.

First and foremost in importance to God is obeying Him,

No, God GIVES obedience as a gift to those He has chosen.

[Rom 1:4 KJV] 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[rogerg]

Not so. It is the primary hope of those who only of themselves. It wasn’t, for example, the primary hope of Paul or Moses. Would you like scripture for that?

You could be correct but yes please, provide that scripture.

 

[crossnote]

...and that "abounding grace" allows us to turn from our old ways.
Thanks be to God.

Yes, that along with the new birth.

 

[crossnote]

Actually the purpose of the law is so that we treat each other justly. That’s the purpose of every good law and still is. When you suffer because someone broke the law, you don’t say, “see, you’re a lawbreaker. I’m glad the law is there so you finally realized this.”

What about God Himself?…

Exodus 20:2-3 ESV
[2] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [3] "You shall have no other gods before me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What about God Himself?…

Exodus 20:2-3 ESV
[2] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. [3] "You shall have no other gods before me.

That’s true too, of course, but the purpose is not so we know we are sinners. It’s so we don’t steal or murder or desire that which belongs to another because it’s wrong.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You could be correct but yes please, provide that scripture.

Paul wrote that he’d be willing to be separated from Christ if it would win his brethren. Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

Moses wrote asking God to blot him out of his book and save the people who had done wrong. Ex 32:32

They loved others more than their own salvation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

On the surface, your question appears illogical. If you're asking who can know God fully and completely, of course, no one can and it is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be asked, but can we know His will in terms of salvation?

That’s the usual chaff blown when talking about knowing God. I mean which spouse claims that they completely and fully understand their spouse? Does that mean they know nothing at all? Are those the only two choices?

Salvation is for baby believers. His will is that “all repent and come to a knowledge of the truth.” So that is settled.

We can if that understanding is given as a gift -- but it is only as a result of salvation, not leading to it.
If this doesn't answer you, restate because I don't understand.

I just quoted a verse that says his will plainly regarding salvation. What more is there to understand?

Understanding God is not given as a gift. It is not earned. It is not automatic. It cannot be declared to be so. It is way beyond salvation. Salvation is the elementary, baby stuff. Knowing God is the mature.

What you do, i.e., works, play a major, but this is nevertheless not earned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay, so then you're saying we saved solely by grace - that God alone does the saving - and we contribute nothing to it - all God's work.

Well, we have a small but vital
role. We have to choose to repent. It’s not sufficient but He won’t repent of our sins for us.

No, God GIVES obedience as a gift to those He has chosen.

No, he never ever does this. “Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” It’s up to us.

[Rom 1:4 KJV] 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Grace is not an irresistible force. I can give examples where the saved did not obey. It He makes us obey that would never ever happen. All the parables demonstrate our part.

 

[rogerg]

Paul wrote that he’d be willing to be separated from Christ if it would win his brethren. Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

So, did they actually wish that, and if not, why?

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is for baby believers. His will is that “all repent and come to a knowledge of the truth.” So that is settled.

Maybe according to you it is settled, but I see it otherwise. Do you get to make that determination?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, did they actually wish that, and if not, why?

They so desired the salvation of others they were willing to lay down their own salvation. “Greater life has no man…” This demonstrates that the wise are not necessarily concerned solely about themselves being saved. Jesus also wasn’t concerned mainly about his own welfare.

 

[rogerg]

I just quoted a verse that says his will plainly regarding salvation. What more is there to understand?

Understanding God is not given as a gift. It is not earned. It is not automatic. It cannot be declared to be so. It is way beyond salvation. Salvation is the elementary, baby stuff. Knowing God is the mature.

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe according to you it is settled, but I see it otherwise. Do you get to make that determination?

Fair question. The Bible does.

1 Peter 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

Salvation is associated with baby faith, which one also needs to grow in.

For you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5.

Hebrews 6 1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings,a the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

This describe the baby christian state. It’s not my personal standard.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

How does this address my point?

 

[rogerg]

How does this address my point?

The point is that an understanding of the gospel must be given as a gift to someone, and until it is, they will not have spiritual understanding of Christ or His gospel.

 

[rogerg]

Well, we have a small but vital
role. We have to choose to repent. It’s not sufficient but He won’t repent of our sins for us.

Of themselves, no one will choose to repent:
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

No, he never ever does this. “Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” It’s up to us.

So, you're saying then that Christ isn't the Savior after all?