Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

The point is that an understanding of the gospel must be given as a gift to someone, and until it is, they will not have spiritual understanding of Christ or His gospel.

Do you have a scripture that says understanding the gospel is a gift?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of themselves, no one will choose to repent:
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But no word there says repenting is spiritually discerned. On the day of Pentecost when the men asked Peter what they must do to be saved, he responded they needed to repent. Not a word about no one being able to repent or that repentance is only spiritually discerned. Everyone understands guilt for their deeds. What repentance is can also be understood. It’s not difficult to understand. It’s unpleasant to do.

So, you're saying then that Christ isn't the Savior after all?

When did I say anything close to this? Jesus clearly taught we have a vital but insufficient part to play. We must repent. He doesn’t do it for us. Do you he repents for us?

 

[rogerg]

Do you have a scripture that says understanding the gospel is a gift?

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[crossnote]

That’s true too, of course, but the purpose is not so we know we are sinners. It’s so we don’t steal or murder or desire that which belongs to another because it’s wrong.

(Gal 3:19) Why, then, the Law [what was its purpose]? It was added [after the promise to Abraham, to reveal to people their guilt] because of transgressions [that is, to make people conscious of the sinfulness of sin], and [the Law] was ordained through angels and delivered to Israel by the hand of a mediator [Moses, the mediator between God and Israel, to be in effect] until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made. AMP

(Gal 3:19) Why then was the law given? It was added for the sake of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator. CSB

(Gal 3:19) Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. ESV

(Gal 3:19) Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary. NET


(Gal 3:19) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. NASB

The law demanded but gave no power to do:

(Rom 7:18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. NASB

(Rom 7:18) For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it. NET

(Rom 7:18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. ESV

(Rom 7:18) For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. CSB

(Rom 7:18) For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]

I stand with Scripture, not your meager opinions.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree with the first three points, but not the fourth.
The new creature has a finely honed conscience that knows what is or is not love.
We do all grow in grace and knowledge as we study and mature, but we also all start from a holy, pure position too.

How many years passed before the bible was widely available?
They didn't have the scriptures to consult at their leisure, and they remained pure.

OK.
Keep praying.

I am speaking of knowledge of the law, not purity of conscience: conscience also depends on knowledge to a degree.

The babes in Christ know what not to do, but can be guilt tripped by men adding their own commandments to the law of God, such as taste not, handle not, marry not, etc..., which are all the super-righteous zero tolerance policies of those who think remaining weak in conscience is strong in holiness.

How many years passed before the bible was widely available?
They didn't have the scriptures to consult at their leisure, and they remained pure.

Which is why the Galatians needed one who did know the Scriptures to reassure them outward circumcision is no more law of God to His people.

Our pure conscience suffices for all who would take away from the law, but knowledge of Scripture learns the difference between the conviction of the Spirit and the guilt trips of man.

Those who are also strong inthe word cannot be led astray to obey commandments of men as doctrine of Christ:

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. (1 John 2)

 

[RBDERRICK]

I didn't say I didn't believe the command, only that it is a standard which debunks perfectionism.

According to your definitions, perfectionism is loving God in spirit and body 24/7: cleansing our spirit and bodies of all filthiness of thought and deed.

Now, if you want to say that we can love God with all the heart 12/4, Or we can love God with half a heart, then go ahead.

In any case, your belief in the commandment is agreement only, not doing it.

Hearers only, are simply them that hear and agree with the truth, but do it not.

I was such, until God commanded me to keep His commandment as written, and not only idealize them as some kind of hopeful dream. I was blameless in the law of Christ outwardly, but not inwardly.

We must purify and guard our hearts and minds from all unrighteous thoughts and vain imagination for sin, and we will know the truth of the doctrine for ourselves.

But, you will need to first rid yourself of accusing doing righteousness at all times in spirit and body as vain imagination of the perfectionist self-righteous.

 

[rogerg]

But no word there says repenting is spiritually discerned. On the day of Pentecost when the men asked Peter what they must do to be saved, he responded they needed to repent. Not a word about no one being able to repent or that repentance is only spiritually discerned. Everyone understands guilt for their deeds. What repentance is can also be understood. It’s not difficult to understand. It’s unpleasant to do.

We are informed that it is God alone who can give true repentance:

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Unless repentance is given by God, it will be a false repentance and not of the heart. Of ourselves, we are unable to change the heart concerning things spiritual

[Act 2:39 KJV]
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

When did I say anything close to this? Jesus clearly taught we have a vital but insufficient part to play. We must repent. He doesn’t do it for us. Do you he repents for us?

"vital but insufficient"? You can't have it both ways: He either is the Saviour or He is not. To be the Saviour, He had to have done all that was required to save those He came to save, with nothing, nothing, remaining to be done.

Yes, I think He repented for those He came to save as a part of His offering. His in His offering was repentance.

[Psa 51:17 KJV] 17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

[Isa 57:15 KJV] 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

[Act 5:31 KJV] 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I find that those who argue against works don’t want to have to do any. They use terms like “should” and not “must.”

Which is why they blindly denounce being justified by works:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2)

I have come to see from their own words, that 'have to', and 'must' is anathema to their idea of being saved. It really is a simple matter of pride and not being willing to humble ourselves to actually obey God, whether we feel like it or not.

All the arguments around Scripture is just cover.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You don't love God with all your heart, mind and soul?
I do, and I am not alone; so it is not a debunking of perfect obedience to God.
Thanks be to God.
Why strive for 60 or 80%?
Wouldn't they be as impossible as 100%?

Now that is a unique comment.

But it is the natural manner of the double hearted: sometimes they reject unrighteous and corrupt thinking, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they reject following through with lust for the flesh, and sometimes they don't.

I know. I was there right in the middle of Romans 7, but I didn't count it so much as wretched, but rather was presuming on God drawing me back to confession and repentance.

When the Lord did come and Personally demand my whole obedience within and without, then I learned for the first time the true fear of the Lord.

I was not so much afraid of His judgement, but rather was afraid of failing Him.

The moment I began to purify and guard against the thoughts of the devil, is when I began to truly experience the power of Christ to do so and overcome sinning in spirit and body altogether:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)

The main difference between myself and OSAS die-hards, is that I never found fault with the teaching of whole hearted purity and righteousness, but rather just did not count it as desirable: I was honest with myself.

I was enjoying the pleasures of sin at will, but I wasn't celebrating grace over it.

God winked at it and gave space for a season, until He told me enough is enough.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (Rev 2)

 

[RBDERRICK]

We are informed that it is God alone who can give true repentance:

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And so, not only is salvation gifted, but also repentance.

We can't even repent now, until God gifts it to us.

It's not enough to know the need for repentance by way of instruction, but God also has to come and lay it in our hands.

This is the source for the hypocrite's doctrine, that God will give me repentance, when He wants me to repent.

What God will do is give up on us, if we keep playing games with His blood and mocking His Spirit of grace:

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. (Rom 1)

God's grace is commanding us to repent in the first place.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You know Hopeful, for one, I really like your modest name. Says something about you. You didn’t pick a lofty “I am great for Him” name but a gentle humble one. You have my respect.

Second, understanding God is, I think, the most rewarding experience a human can have. It is the pearl of great price which costs the seeker a great deal. It is never granted as attributed to having because of Christ. It’s either real in one’s thinking or it is not there. There is no “I understand God no matter what I think about Him because of Jesus.”

The only path is obedience to His directions to you personally. And we are talking years of this. But it’s totally worth it, more than worth it.

“God hides himself from the wise and intelligent (Christians) and reveals himself to babes.”

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5)

Understanding Him leads to the greatest of all, knowing Him.

Be still, and know that I am God. (Ps 46)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are informed that it is God alone who can give true repentance:

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Let’s look at the whole of that passage:

Lord’s servante must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

“That they may come to their senses” means that they realize. This is what THEY must do. He does not BEING them to their senses. All the verses where men preached “repent” demonstrates He does not make people repent nor is repentance a gift he grants to the “lucky ones.”

Unless repentance is given by God, it will be a false repentance and not of the heart. Of ourselves, we are unable to change the heart concerning things spiritual

There is no verse that says God gives repentance. Even “granting” something means you allow the other to do as they wish. We grant requests, for example.

[Act 2:39 KJV]
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Many are called.

"vital but insufficient"? You can't have it both ways: He either is the Saviour or He is not. To be the Saviour, He had to have done all that was required to save those He came to save, with nothing, nothing, remaining to be done.

Where does that standard come from? God said “whosoever will”
not “whosoever God chooses.” Jesus has no problem being the savior for whosoever will. Doesn’t make him no savior at all. If a man rescue another by throwing him a ring which the man in danger holds, it doesn’t make it less of a life saving act.

Yes, I think He repented for those He came to save as a part of His offering. His in His offering was repentance.

[Psa 51:17 KJV] 17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Says the sinner has to have this heart. Jesus doesn’t do this for us.

[Isa 57:15 KJV] 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

[Act 5:31 KJV] 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

So you believe God have repentance to Israel? How come they didn’t all repent? And you have a problem in that he gives his Holy Spirit only “to those who obey Him.” Obedience comes first.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"So, you're saying then that Christ isn't the Savior after all?"

Not for sinners still sinning, especially not while sinning against God for the devil.

This impish little way of trying to say the righteous are saving themselves is impish.

The only ones on earth saying that Jesus is not the Christ and Savior, are those saying it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5)

Understanding Him leads to the greatest of all, knowing Him.

Be still, and know that I am God. (Ps 46)

So can you explain why this understanding supposedly given by God to all christians results in widely different understandings? Just wondering.

 

[RBDERRICK]

He does not BEING them to their senses.

That's funny. I like it.

And it has a lot of truth to it. I experienced many fillings of the Spirit, including the anointing oil of the Holy Ghost, and yet I do not repent, until I choose to do so.

Spiritual experience is no proof nor guarantee of being saved at the end, but only enduring and overcoming temptation for sin is.

King Saul had prophetic spiritual experience all night long, even as he was still seeking to kill David.

The goodness and mercy of God is only for leading to repentance, not for reassuring our sinful hearts of salvation.

The Spirit of grace is our partner and fellow helper in time of need to overcome temptation.

Babes that wait for God to pick them up and carry them into repentance, are not growing up in Christ, and the end result is death and ground full of briars and thorns. (Heb 5-6)

Newborn babes are not babies in need of being carried over the finish line.

We walk hand in hand in His steps the whole way through, or we walk away from Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So can you explain why this understanding supposedly given by God to all christians results in widely different understandings? Just wondering.

Because being Christians in the Christians' religion is the same as being Jews in the Jews' religion: One only names the name of Jehovah, while the other only names the name of Jesus.

But only them departing iniquity for His name's sake know Him in deed and in truth.

 

[rogerg]

That they may come to their senses” means that they realize. This is what THEY must do. He does not BEING them to their senses. All the verses where men preached “repent” demonstrates He does not make people repent nor is repentance a gift he grants to the “lucky ones.”

Disagree. God is either the Saviour or He not -- there can be no middle ground. I know that He is so there's nothing for those saved to do-- not even necessary to accept the gift. So is He or isn't He?

 

[crossnote]

According to your definitions, perfectionism is loving God in spirit and body 24/7: cleansing our spirit and bodies of all filthiness of thought and deed.

Now, if you want to say that we can love God with all the heart 12/4, Or we can love God with half a heart, then go ahead.

In any case, your belief in the commandment is agreement only, not doing it.

Hearers only, are simply them that hear and agree with the truth, but do it not.

I was such, until God commanded me to keep His commandment as written, and not only idealize them as some kind of hopeful dream. I was blameless in the law of Christ outwardly, but not inwardly.

We must purify and guard our hearts and minds from all unrighteous thoughts and vain imagination for sin, and we will know the truth of the doctrine for ourselves.

But, you will need to first rid yourself of accusing doing righteousness at all times in spirit and body as vain imagination of the perfectionist self-righteous.

(Gal 3:11) Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith.
(Gal 3:12) But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them.
(Gal 3:13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Because...

(Jas 2:10) For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.

 

[Hopeful]

You know Hopeful, for one, I really like your modest name. Says something about you. You didn’t pick a lofty “I am great for Him” name but a gentle humble one. You have my respect.

Well thanks...but I'm not going to send you any money ! (LOL)

Second, understanding God is, I think, the most rewarding experience a human can have. It is the pearl of great price which costs the seeker a great deal. It is never granted as attributed to having because of Christ. It’s either real in one’s thinking or it is not there. There is no “I understand God no matter what I think about Him because of Jesus.”

You are sure right about the cost.

The only path is obedience to His directions to you personally. And we are talking years of this. But it’s totally worth it, more than worth it.
“God hides himself from the wise and intelligent (Christians) and reveals himself to babes.”

Amen to that.

 

[Hopeful]

On the surface, your question appears illogical. If you're asking who can know God fully and completely, of course, no one can and it is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be asked, but can we know His will in terms of salvation? We can if that understanding is given as a gift -- but it is only as a result of salvation, not leading to it.
If this doesn't answer you, restate because I don't understand.

I can't answer for Dorothy Mae, but I can't serve a God who you assume capriciously awards salvation to a chosen few and will destroy the rest of mankind for its disobedience.
All men get the chance to serve.