Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Okay, so then you're saying we saved solely by grace - that God alone does the saving - and we contribute nothing to it - all God's work.



No, God GIVES obedience as a gift to those He has chosen.

[Rom 1:4 KJV] 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

This could lead to a "what is your definition of "for", in this verse" situation.
You assume it means "in order to", while I see it as "because of".
We "receive" because we obey.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, that along with the new birth.

Indeed, and there are many other facets of our conversion.
Hearing a preacher, and the gift of the Holy Ghost contribute too.

 

[Hopeful]

That’s true too, of course, but the purpose is not so we know we are sinners. It’s so we don’t steal or murder or desire that which belongs to another because it’s wrong.

Not just because it is wrong, but because God said it is wrong.

 

[Hopeful]

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Belief is available to all men.
None are shielded from it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not just because it is wrong, but because God said it is wrong.

I know that sounds like a better answer but if you think about it longer, it is a lesser answer. We do not know right and wrong because God says something is right or wrong. We have an internal moral compass (the majority on us and those who killed theirs are really scary.) We know right from wrong and have been so enabled since Adam and Eve. We know good from evil and at the very least, when evil has been done to us we know it really well. We know good laws from bad ones (they bad one favor certain groups.) The law is there to protect us from others pursuing their own pleasure at our expense because when it comes to our benefit, suddenly the knowledge of right and wrong gets weak.

 

[crossnote]

Indeed, and there are many other facets of our conversion.
Hearing a preacher, and the gift of the Holy Ghost contribute too.

The new birth is where our journey begins.
There is no new birth without the Holy Ghost and we can't understand spiritual things spoken by a preacher without the new birth.

 

[Hopeful]

Now that is a unique comment.
But it is the natural manner of the double hearted: sometimes they reject unrighteous and corrupt thinking, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they reject following through with lust for the flesh, and sometimes they don't.

Everything up to a 99% Christian is a double-hearted man.
Be a 100%er !

I know. I was there right in the middle of Romans 7, but I didn't count it so much as wretched, but rather was presuming on God drawing me back to confession and repentance.
When the Lord did come and Personally demand my whole obedience within and without, then I learned for the first time the true fear of the Lord.
I was not so much afraid of His judgement, but rather was afraid of failing Him.

Great testimony .

The moment I began to purify and guard against the thoughts of the devil, is when I began to truly experience the power of Christ to do so and overcome sinning in spirit and body altogether:

That is what repentance from sin is.
A turning away from, in this case, sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)

Thanks be to God.

The main difference between myself and OSAS die-hards, is that I never found fault with the teaching of whole hearted purity and righteousness, but rather just did not count it as desirable: I was honest with myself.

Great.

I was enjoying the pleasures of sin at will, but I wasn't celebrating grace over it.

Huh?

God winked at it and gave space for a season, until He told me enough is enough.
Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (Rev 2)

If "the turn" isn't 100%, it isn't a turn from, in this case, sin, at all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Because being Christians in the Christians' religion is the same as being Jews in the Jews' religion: One only names the name of Jehovah, while the other only names the name of Jesus.

But only them departing iniquity for His name's sake know Him in deed and in truth.

Well, the entry into being a Christian is repenting of sins and receiving salvation (not asking him into your heart) and that is different. But for many, especially some groups, it is as you describe.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The new birth is where our journey begins.
There is no new birth without the Holy Ghost and we can't understand spiritual things spoken by a preacher without the new birth.

This is pretty easily tested. We just need to ask an unbeliever if they understand matters you designate as "spiritual" and not understood. I think being really sorry for what you did and wanting to make it right is not one of those things. Being sorry for your words or deeds is pretty common.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Disagree. God is either the Saviour or He not -- there can be no middle ground. I know that He is so there's nothing for those saved to do-- not even necessary to accept the gift. So is He or isn't He?

The problem is YOU have decided what hoops Jesus has to jump through to qualify as being called "saviour." Either he complies with your personal definition, not the one that He chooses, or he is not Saviour. That is like telling a wife that unless she fulfills what a wife is to that man, she is not a wife. You will find that when you meet Him, he did not meet your demands but defines what He did as Saviour even though it did not meet your requirements.

 

[Hopeful]

We are informed that it is God alone who can give true repentance:

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And so, not only is salvation gifted, but also repentance.

God will give them to whoever wants them.

We can't even repent now, until God gifts it to us.

That doctrine blocks folks from repenting.

It's not enough to know the need for repentance by way of instruction, but God also has to come and lay it in our hands.

That is an artificial reason to keep sinning..."It's God's fault!"

This is the source for the hypocrite's doctrine, that God will give me repentance, when He wants me to repent.

Yikes, I thought you were espousing that doctrine, not refuting it.
I'm glad you straightened that out.

What God will do is give up on us, if we keep playing games with His blood and mocking His Spirit of grace:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves. (Rom 1)
God's grace is commanding us to repent in the first place.

It isn't His grace commanding us, but He Himself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God will give them to whoever wants them.

That doctrine blocks folks from repenting.

That is an artificial reason to keep sinning..."It's God's fault!"

Yikes, I thought you were espousing that doctrine, not refuting it.
I'm glad you straightened that out.

It isn't His grace commanding us, but He Himself.

HI Hope,

It is his will that all repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. So he gives repentance to all since this is what he wants. Does not mean that all want to repent as that is very unpleasant. I think we agree on this.

 

[crossnote]

This is pretty easily tested. We just need to ask an unbeliever if they understand matters you designate as "spiritual" and not understood. I think being really sorry for what you did and wanting to make it right is not one of those things. Being sorry for your words or deeds is pretty common.

Waaa?
If they are an unbeliever they won't comprehend their need for salvation nor be able to discern the difference between the secular from the sacred.

 

[Hopeful]

I know that sounds like a better answer but if you think about it longer, it is a lesser answer. We do not know right and wrong because God says something is right or wrong. We have an internal moral compass (the majority on us and those who killed theirs are really scary.) We know right from wrong and have been so enabled since Adam and Eve. We know good from evil and at the very least, when evil has been done to us we know it really well. We know good laws from bad ones (they bad one favor certain groups.) The law is there to protect us from others pursuing their own pleasure at our expense because when it comes to our benefit, suddenly the knowledge of right and wrong gets weak.

We know something is right or wrong because someone who loved us told us something is right or wrong.
If mom and dad had never shown us that stealing was wrong, it wouldn't be wrong to us either.
Our moral compass is the end result of our interactions with others.
For instance...When Europeans first discovered south-seas islands, the folks there all went around naked...and thought nothing of it.
Nudity was only "wrong" after they were told it was, and it was because of the teachings from God.
Kinda like Adam and Eve after eating from the tree of knowledge.

 

[Hopeful]

The new birth is where our journey begins.
There is no new birth without the Holy Ghost and we can't understand spiritual things spoken by a preacher without the new birth.

Men can understand the word of the teachers who bring the gospel message...without having the gift of the Holy Ghost yet.
The 3000 at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost are testimony to that.
Peter said the gift of the Holy Ghost was the result of repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
Look at the folks of Samaria that Peter laid his hands on to give the gift of the Holy Ghost.
They heard, believed, and were even water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins... without the Spirit. (Acts 8:14-15)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We know something is right or wrong because someone who loved us told us something is right or wrong.
If mom and dad had never shown us that stealing was wrong, it wouldn't be wrong to us either.
Our moral compass is the end result of our interactions with others.
For instance...When Europeans first discovered south-seas islands, the folks there all went around naked...and thought nothing of it.
Nudity was only "wrong" after they were told it was, and it was because of the teachings from God.
Kinda like Adam and Eve after eating from the tree of knowledge.

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they learned the difference between good and evil. When a child reaches the age of awareness of morality, they understand good from evil. It cannot even be taught as it requires an internal awareness. Our moral compass is inborn.

As for cultural matters, how that is lived out varies slightly. For the islanders, they do not run around naked. The women did not necessarily wear a covering but they were not naked for the same reason we do not run around naked.

In detail, how does a parent tell a child what is wrong or not? Not "that is wrong" but what wrong is? How would you tell someone what wrong is if they have no idea?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Waaa?
If they are an unbeliever they won't comprehend their need for salvation nor be able to discern the difference between the secular from the sacred.

If you want to restrict "understanding spiritual matters" to simply knowing their need for forgiveness and salvation, then I agree. But "spiritual matters" is pretty large and vague.

 

[Hopeful]

HI Hope,

It is his will that all repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. So he gives repentance to all since this is what he wants. Does not mean that all want to repent as that is very unpleasant. I think we agree on this.

Yes, we do agree.

 

[Hopeful]

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they learned the difference between good and evil. When a child reaches the age of awareness of morality, they understand good from evil. It cannot even be taught as it requires an internal awareness. Our moral compass is inborn.

If it were inborn, children wouldn't need to be taught that lying is wrong.

As for cultural matters, how that is lived out varies slightly. For the islanders, they do not run around naked. The women did not necessarily wear a covering but they were not naked for the same reason we do not run around naked.

They don't anymore, as the visitors taught them not to.
Where did we learn it?

In detail, how does a parent tell a child what is wrong or not? Not "that is wrong" but what wrong is? How would you tell someone what wrong is if they have no idea?

They get the idea from their parents reaction to it.
If lying, hurting someone else, or stealing earns a spanking, they learn.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If it were inborn, children wouldn't need to be taught that lying is wrong.

They don't anymore, as the visitors taught them not to.
Where did we learn it?

They get the idea from their parents reaction to it.
If lying, hurting someone else, or stealing earns a spanking, they learn.

How do you explain what "wrong" is? Many do not spank and we do not spank adults in any case. "You will get a spanking if you do that" does not explain what wrong is. This is how we train animals who have no idea of right and wrong. If the pet does what their master does not like, there are negative consequences, but that is not right or wrong. It is just "master does not like it."

Moral right or wrong is different. If someone does something wrong that is not illegal, since there is no punishment, does that make it OK? If someone lies about you at work and you lose your job, that is not illegal. Does that mean you are not angry or think it "wrong?*