Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[crossnote]

If you want to restrict "understanding spiritual matters" to simply knowing their need for forgiveness and salvation, then I agree. But "spiritual matters" is pretty large and vague.

It is, but my point was that it starts with regeneration and grows from there.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is, but my point was that it starts with regeneration and grows from there.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is the Calvinist position but you cannot really draw that from the scripture. When Jesus and others taught men to repent, he said nothing whatsoever about God being required to make them able to understand what repentance is. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, for sure. No one comes to Jesus without some action on God's part, that is drawing them. But no indication that God has to regenerate a person before they can repent and become regenerated. I know that is the complicated Calvinist answer to their theology that presents the adherent with problems that they try to solve.

The scripture by Paul is not addressing salvation. Sorry for sin or repentance is built into people and the Holy Spirit is convincing the whole world, the unregenerate too, of their sin. That is "spiritual understanding" they do understand. We just need to ask them. If you read the letters of Paul, you can see that he is talking about other matters that also elude many christians.

 

[crossnote]

But no indication that God has to regenerate a person before they can repent and become regenerated.

Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

could you be so kind as to support your position with Scripture rather than your own human understanding?

The above passage shows when we were dead in sins and trespasses, God, in His mercy quickened us to new life.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

could you be so kind as to support your position with Scripture rather than your own human understanding?

The above passage shows when we were dead in sins and trespasses, God, in His mercy quickened us to new life.

Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

could you be so kind as to support your position with Scripture rather than your own human understanding?

The above passage shows when we were dead in sins and trespasses, God, in His mercy quickened us to new life.

Where does this say He regenerated the unregenerated before they could become regenerated? Do you know the conversion of Paul account? Did he report he was regenerated before being regenerated? That’s a detailed account of his salvation and no such description is there.

That scripture does NOT detail the salvation process as Calvinists need it to do.

As for scripture, the conversion of Paul lists NO regeneration process before being saved. Not a single gospel presentation mentions, “but ask God to regenerate you so you can be saved.” I cannot show a scripture for a doctrine that doesn’t exist.

 

[rogerg]

The problem is YOU have decided what hoops Jesus has to jump through to qualify as being called "saviour." Either he complies with your personal definition, not the one that He chooses, or he is not Saviour. That is like telling a wife that unless she fulfills what a wife is to that man, she is not a wife. You will find that when you meet Him, he did not meet your demands but defines what He did as Saviour even though it did not meet your requirements.

My demands? These are my demands:

[Mat 1:21 KJV] 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[Isa 25:9 KJV] 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. You are being evasive. By so being, you have revealed that you do not believe in Jesus to be such a Saviour. You can't straddle the fence on this: He either completely saves or He is not the Saviour -- it is as simple as that You are the one being unreasonable according to what the Bible tells us and you are the one trying to make up the rules: A Saviour can't be the Saviour, if He doesn't save His people an save them to the uttermost. Observe:

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My demands? These are my demands:

[Mat 1:21 KJV] 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

How does he do this? By offering forgiveness to whosoever will, not whosoever God chooses.

[Isa 25:9 KJV] 9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Notice they chose.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. You are being evasive.

What question? I believe Jesus is the savior as God knows that to be.

By so being, you have revealed that you do not believe in Jesus to be such a Saviour. You can't straddle the fence on this: He either completely saves or He is not the Saviour -- it is as simple as that You are the one being unreasonable according to what the Bible tells us and you are the one trying to make up the rules: A Saviour can't be the Saviour, if He doesn't save His people an save them to the uttermost. Observe:

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Ah, do you see the “able to save them ..that come to Him” part? Those who COME TO HIM. Scripture does not support your position.

 

[rogerg]

Belief is available to all men.
None are shielded from it.

What about these verses don't you understand?

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What about these verses don't you understand?

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Correct. Doesn’t mean they all, 100% come who are called. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[rogerg]

How does he do this? By offering forgiveness to whosoever will, not whosoever God chooses.

The verse is not conditional. You are adding to it words that are not there - you've taken inappropriate liberty with
it. HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE with no exceptions or qualifications to it, period.

 

[rogerg]

Correct. Doesn’t mean they all, 100% come who are called. Many are called but few are chosen.

Yes, it does:

[Jhn 6:37, 65 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[rogerg]

This could lead to a "what is your definition of "for", in this verse" situation.
You assume it means "in order to", while I see it as "because of".
We "receive" because we obey.

Nice try but you can't get there from here:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By[G1223] whom[G3739] we have received[G2983] grace[G5485] and[G2532] apostleship,[G651] for[G1519] obedience[G5218] to the faith[G4102] among[G1722] all[G3956] nations,[G1484] for[G5228] his[G846] name:[G3686]

Inflected:εἰς
Root:εἰς

Strong's: G1519
English: for
Code: PREP

eis:
into, unto, to, towards, for, among

 

[crossnote]

Where does this say He regenerated the unregenerated before they could become regenerated? Do you know the conversion of Paul account? Did he report he was regenerated before being regenerated? That’s a detailed account of his salvation and no such description is there.

That scripture does NOT detail the salvation process as Calvinists need it to do.

As for scripture, the conversion of Paul lists NO regeneration process before being saved. Not a single gospel presentation mentions, “but ask God to regenerate you so you can be saved.” I cannot show a scripture for a doctrine that doesn’t exist.

Yes, and not one Gospel presentation in the Book of Acts mentions "God loves you".
The Ephesians' 2 passage states that we were dead in sins and trespasses when God quickened us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, and not one Gospel presentation in the Book of Acts mentions "God loves you".
The Ephesians' 2 passage states that we were dead in sins and trespasses when God quickened us.

Not a word about regenerating before one can be regenerated. Quickened is being aware of your sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, it does:

[Jhn 6:37, 65 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Why did Jesus say “many are called but few are chosen?”

You probably don’t realized that being called is not being given.

 

[rogerg]

Why did Jesus say “many are called but few are chosen?”

You probably don’t realized that being called is not being given.

Those "chosen" obviously did not/could not choose themselves, otherwise, "chosen" wouldn't be the appropriate word. Instead, they had to have been chosen by someone apart from themselves -- the choice not being theirs to make. Those not chosen could not remain at the wedding. Only chose dressed in a wedding garment were allowed to remain. This eliminates any possibility that salvation can be achieved by the will or actions of an individual

[Mat 22:12-13 KJV]
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[Mat 22:14 KJV]
14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

The wedding garment is salvation which can only be bestowed by God. Those not clothed in the wedding garment were, and will be, cast out

[Isa 61:10 KJV] 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

I may add more to this post later but have to leave for now.

 

[Hopeful]

How do you explain what "wrong" is?

Illustrate the cost of "wrong", and reinforce the "correct".

Many do not spank and we do not spank adults in any case. "You will get a spanking if you do that" does not explain what wrong is. This is how we train animals who have no idea of right and wrong. If the pet does what their master does not like, there are negative consequences, but that is not right or wrong. It is just "master does not like it."

I envision children far differently than I envision animals.

Moral right or wrong is different. If someone does something wrong that is not illegal, since there is no punishment, does that make it OK? If someone lies about you at work and you lose your job, that is not illegal. Does that mean you are not angry or think it "wrong?*

Worldly, moral right or wrong are based on prevailing custom.
Christian, moral right or wrong are based on love.

 

[Hopeful]

Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

could you be so kind as to support your position with Scripture rather than your own human understanding?

The above passage shows when we were dead in sins and trespasses, God, in His mercy quickened us to new life.

The quickening and mercy were available to all men, after the resurrection of Christ, but not all will do what it takes to profit from it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Illustrate the cost of "wrong", and reinforce the "correct".

No, that does not explain wrong. And that’s how we train animals. The cost of wrong to you is not an explanation. And it requires a more powerful master. Wrong is still wrong whether a stronger master is there or not.

I envision children far differently than I envision animals.

Ah but you method is exactly the same.

Worldly, moral right or wrong are based on prevailing custom.
Christian, moral right or wrong are based on love.

Not so. Moral right and wrong is always the same. Every culture, for example, sees murder as morally wrong.

 

[Hopeful]

What about these verses don't you understand?

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The fact of the matter is that some still don't "come unto Me" after it has been give to them of the Father.
What He gave is available to all men.
God isn't picking out who will be converted from darkness and unto light.

 

[Hopeful]

Nice try but you can't get there from here:

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By[G1223] whom[G3739] we have received[G2983] grace[G5485] and[G2532] apostleship,[G651] for[G1519] obedience[G5218] to the faith[G4102] among[G1722] all[G3956] nations,[G1484] for[G5228] his[G846] name:[G3686]

Inflected:εἰς
Root:εἰς

Strong's: G1519
English: for
Code: PREP

eis:
into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Thanks for six definitions while we started out with just two.
I just don't believe your doctrine of God giving us obedience because we are already saved.
It makes the day of judgement a moot point.