Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Not a word about regenerating before one can be regenerated. Quickened is being aware of your sin.

Quickened is... "being made alive".

1. 1 Corinthians 15:36
   Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
2. Ephesians 2:1
   And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
3. Ephesians 2:5
   Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks for six definitions while we started out with just two.
I just don't believe your doctrine of God giving us obedience because we are already saved.
It makes the day of judgement a moot point.

If one looks in the mirror and around, one doesn’t find obedience to God every where you look (among believers.)

 

[rogerg]

Thanks for six definitions while we started out with just two.
I just don't believe your doctrine of God giving us obedience because we are already saved.

Whaaaat? My doctrine? Did you miss the verse I included - Roger didn't make it up, it was from the Bible

Here - conformation:

[Rev 20:6 KJV]
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[crossnote]

Not a word about regenerating before one can be regenerated. Quickened is being aware of your sin.

...even many unregenerate are aware of their sins.

 

[crossnote]

If one looks in the mirror and around, one doesn’t find obedience to God every where you look (among believers.)

We uphold the law through upholding the redemptive work of Jesus Christ...

(Rom 3:31) Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

 

[crossnote]

The quickening and mercy were available to all men, after the resurrection of Christ, but not all will do what it takes to profit from it.

At least you don't deny 'quickening' refers to the new birth; but I can equally argue that only the elect will be quickened.

Galatians 1:15 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

(Rom 8:30) And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[rogerg]

The fact of the matter is that some still don't "come unto Me" after it has been give to them of the Father.
What He gave is available to all men.
God isn't picking out who will be converted from darkness and unto light.

Yes, that is exactly what God declares and does: He has picked out those He will save - He is God and it is His prerogative to do so - to save those whom He has chosen, whether you (or anyone) likes it or not.

I'll try this again.
1) no man can come to Jesus unless given to him of the Father
2) ALL those (of #1), WILL COME TO JESUS (with no if, ands, or buts),
3) Of ALL those given to Jesus by the Father, Jesus will neither lose nor cast out any of them.
4) None, besides those given by the Father, can come to Jesus.

Please read these verses closely - they are logically complete and perfect - nothing has been left unaddressed.

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[Jhn 6:39]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. ...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Quickened is... "being made alive".

1. 1 Corinthians 15:36
   Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Not a reference to salvation, but of course that is correct.

1. Ephesians 2:1
   And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Ephesians 2:5
   Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

The difficulty is that the Calvinists take that metaphor and make it into a “God does it all” so you’re either lucky or unlucky theology. The experience of salvation is not really from dead to living for everyone. If we tell the unsaved they are dead, they will rightly say we don’t know what “dead” means. It is a metaphor.

The experience is becoming aware which is not a metaphor, but yes, that KJV word “quickened” means made alive, thank you.

 

[Hopeful]

If one looks in the mirror and around, one doesn’t find obedience to God every where you look (among believers.)

Belief is manifested by actions.

 

[Hopeful]

Whaaaat? My doctrine? Did you miss the verse I included - Roger didn't make it up, it was from the Bible

OK, "that doctrine" of God giving us obedience after we are "saved".
Our obedience to God starts with repentance from sin. (Acts 2:38)

Here - conformation:
[Rev 20:6 KJV]
6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I fail to see a connection.

 

[Hopeful]

At least you don't deny 'quickening' refers to the new birth; but I can equally argue that only the elect will be quickened.

In the right context, I agree.

Galatians 1:15 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
(Rom 8:30) And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

If we do "A", "B" is predestinated.
Not, "B" is predestined so "A" could happen.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Belief is manifested by actions.

Correct, and lack of belief as well.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In the right context, I agree.

If we do "A", "B" is predestinated.
Not, "B" is predestined so "A" could happen.

How can A or B be “predestined” if it all hangs on our choice? Doesn’t predestined mean set before choice?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Illustrate the cost of "wrong", and reinforce the "correct".

No, that only means “master/mother doesn’t personally like this behavior so don’t do it as long as they are around.” That’s how we train animals. The only weight we have is punishment and the reason is we arbitrarily don’t like that behavior. The concept of moral behavior goes beyond a personal dislike. The conscience is built upon this understanding.

I envision children far differently than I envision animals.

But you think they understand right the same way.

Worldly, moral right or wrong are based on prevailing custom.

No they are not. They are the same the world over. Killing, once recognized as murder, is universally wrong. Stealing, once defined as stealing, is morally wrong. “How many wives a man can have varies but it’s universally true that you can’t simply take any woman you want.” I can give you more examples. Moral right and wrong cannot be taught same as we cannot teach love or courage or honor. We can call a man to stir those up in himself. We cannot put them in.

Christian, moral right or wrong are based on love.

This doesn’t mean non-Christians know neither love nor right and wrong.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

...even many unregenerate are aware of their sins.

That’s my point. Probably all
are aware of their sins except a few on death row.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We uphold the law through upholding the redemptive work of Jesus Christ...

(Rom 3:31) Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Well if you read Jesus’ sermons, you’ll find he expects a more practical upholding. Just believing in the redemptive work of Christ ignoring all that Christ taught on behavior isn’t even very redemptive. We are to be saved from our (sinful and damaging others) behavior not merely from hell.

 

[rogerg]

I fail to see a connection.

I believe I've replied to your first point several on several different occasions before so I'm going to ignore it now.

Regarding your "connection" question, which was about standing for judgment, the verse tells us that those who are born-again (spiritually resurrected) in this current world can never be found guilty, nor have anything to fear, nor can be sentenced by God at the judgment at the end of time. It is the exact opposite for those who have not been spiritually resurrected.
I think we have discussed this multiple times also.

 

[Hopeful]

How can A or B be “predestined” if it all hangs on our choice? Doesn’t predestined mean set before choice?

True, but you have to see what aspect of the scenario is predestined.
Say a man jumps off of a cliff.
He is predestined to fall, not predestined to jump.
Those who have chosen (elected) to serve God are predestined to eternal life.
It isn't...Those who are predestined to serve God will inherit eternal life.

 

[Hopeful]

No, that only means “master/mother doesn’t personally like this behavior so don’t do it as long as they are around.” That’s how we train animals. The only weight we have is punishment and the reason is we arbitrarily don’t like that behavior. The concept of moral behavior goes beyond a personal dislike. The conscience is built upon this understanding.

If the child loves their parent, the ensuing behavior will be based on that love.
Same in our relationship with God and His Son.
If we love them, we will be happy to do their pleasure.

But you think they understand right the same way.

I do believe animals are capable of love, but have a different sort of nature.

No they are not. They are the same the world over. Killing, once recognized as murder, is universally wrong.

Explain the push for legal abortion.
If that isn't a modern custom influencing morality, what could be?
Same goes for pornography, legal drugs, and road rage.
What was never deemed "moral" twenty years ago is now "just another day".

Stealing, once defined as stealing, is morally wrong. “How many wives a man can have varies but it’s universally true that you can’t simply take any woman you want.” I can give you more examples. Moral right and wrong cannot be taught same as we cannot teach love or courage or honor. We can call a man to stir those up in himself. We cannot put them in.

They can be untaught though, by the weakening of man's customs.

This doesn’t mean non-Christians know neither love nor right and wrong.

They know the local customs, and what they can get away with.

 

[Hopeful]

I believe I've replied to your first point several on several different occasions before so I'm going to ignore it now.

Regarding your "connection" question, which was about standing for judgment, the verse tells us that those who are born-again (spiritually resurrected) in this current world can never be found guilty, nor have anything to fear, nor can be sentenced by God at the judgment at the end of time. It is the exact opposite for those who have not been spiritually resurrected.
I think we have discussed this multiple times also.

To that I do agree, and the verse you provided, (Rev 20:6), states this happens at the end of the world.
There will be no more resurrection to life after the final day.
Their resurrection isn't just spiritual, it is physical.

Those you label "born-again (spiritually resurrected)" won't ever be found guilty of anything because they don't commit sin.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)