Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[crossnote]

Well if you read Jesus’ sermons, you’ll find he expects a more practical upholding. Just believing in the redemptive work of Christ ignoring all that Christ taught on behavior isn’t even very redemptive. We are to be saved from our (sinful and damaging others) behavior not merely from hell.

Ok, we are getting to the marrow. If you read Jesus' sermons, what He commands cannot be done by the carnal/natural man (like 'pick up your cross and die for my sake'), yet many martyrs have joyfully done just that because they have been empowered by His Spirit and they have held to the free gift of Hope of eternal life through the redemption found IN Jesus Christ.

You can't separate the FREE GIFT from OBEDIENCE to Christ, it's a PACKAGE DEAL. Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other. Faith in the redemptive work of Christ is the ROOT, Obedience to Christ is the FRUIT.

 

[rogerg]

Those you label "born-again (spiritually resurrected)" won't ever be found guilty of anything because they don't commit sin.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

The verse says "cannot" commit spiritual sin. It does not say "will not" nor "rather not" commit spiritual sin. It is because they had been begotten of God that they sin not spiritually: it is not of themselves.

They are resurrected, spiritually speaking, by having been saved/born-again. The unsaved remains dead spiritually, unless God had chosen them to be saved/born-again, by which, they become resurrected from spiritual death unto eternal life.

[Rom 6:13 KJV] 13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

"are": is present tense. This is the first resurrection. It is spiritual. They are thereby not in danger of the judgment

[1Jo 5:13 KJV] 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

"have": is present tense -- they were resurrected spiritually and thereby will never be in danger of the judgement and the second death

[Jhn 11:24, 26 KJV]
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day (your point, I believe)

Jesus corrects her saying those alive physically that believe in Him already HAVE BEEN resurrected and therefore will never die nor face the judgment. Being made alive spiritually is the first resurrection - a resurrection from spiritual death.

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[Heb 9:27 KJV] 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Once spiritually alive (resurrected) from spiritual death in this life, they will never face judgment and the second death.

[Mat 22:32 KJV] 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

[Rev 20:6 KJV] 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Hopeful]

The verse says "cannot" commit spiritual sin. It does not say "will not" nor "rather not" commit spiritual sin. It is because they had been begotten of God that they sin not spiritually: it is not of themselves.

No, it says "cannot commit sin".
If we cannot commit sin we will not commit sin.
Apple seeds cannot bring forth water melons, and God's seed cannot bring forth the works of the devil

They are resurrected, spiritually speaking, by having been saved/born-again. The unsaved remains dead spiritually, unless God had chosen them to be saved/born-again, by which, they become resurrected from spiritual death unto eternal life.

Resurrected from their death with Christ, at their baptism into His death and burial. (Rom 6:4-6)

[Rom 6:13 KJV] 13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
"are": is present tense. This is the first resurrection. It is spiritual. They are thereby not in danger of the judgment

Agreed, as the old man of sin was slain with Jesus...as per Rom 6:6.

[1Jo 5:13 KJV] 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
"have": is present tense -- they were resurrected spiritually and thereby will never be in danger of the judgement and the second death

If we endure faithfully until the end, we will be able to count ourselves amongst the reborn.

[Jhn 11:24, 26 KJV]
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day (your point, I believe)

That is the resurrection of the dead vessels, from the grave.

Jesus corrects her saying those alive physically that believe in Him already HAVE BEEN resurrected and therefore will never die nor face the judgment. Being made alive spiritually is the first resurrection - a resurrection from spiritual death.

He says no such thing.
And the death Jesus refers to is the second death.
Jesus believed in Himself, and He died.
The vessels will perish, but what is inside them will live forever.

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Speaking again of the second death.

[Heb 9:27 KJV] 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Once spiritually alive (resurrected) from spiritual death in this life, they will never face judgment and the second death.

Death, no, but all men will be judged on the last day.

[Rev 20:6 KJV] 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As Jesus doesn't seem to be coming during my life span, I will be raised at His coming, and will meet Him in the air.
At the final judgement my name will be found in the book of life and then I will say "I am saved!".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ok, we are getting to the marrow. If you read Jesus' sermons, what He commands cannot be done by the carnal/natural man (like 'pick up your cross and die for my sake'), yet many martyrs have joyfully done just that because they have been empowered by His Spirit and they have held to the free gift of Hope of eternal life through the redemption found IN Jesus Christ.

Nonsense. Ever see an atheist do something good for someone else spontaneously that gave the doer no benefit? I have, lots. Jesus says if you give a cup of cold water to a child you won’t lose your reward. Bad people sometimes do good for others. Doesn’t make them fit for Heaven nor does it make the inner man acceptable to live in Heaven. The good we do doesn’t get us entry into Heaven as all the bad inside and outside is still there and not undone by good deeds. Still, it is foolish to say only regenerated do anything good. It’s like an excuse for refusing to do the good before you. “I can’t because God has changed me enough yet.” Nonsense

You can't separate the FREE GIFT from OBEDIENCE to Christ, it's a PACKAGE DEAL. Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other. Faith in the redemptive work of Christ is the ROOT, Obedience to Christ is the FRUIT.

Well, since you’ve received the free gift, do you then obey Hum 24/7? Does your conscience allow you to claim you are obedient since your theology tells you that you have already received?

 

[D-D-W]

[Dorothy Mae said: Do you have a scripture that says understanding the gospel is a gift? ]

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The wisdom the apostle is writing about here is discerned AFTER the person comes to faith. Understanding the gospel has to come BEFORE New Birth; so this cannot be the same thing.

 

[rogerg]

The wisdom the apostle is writing about here is discerned AFTER the person comes to faith. Understanding the gospel has to come BEFORE New Birth; so this cannot be the same thing.

No. The point of the verse is that no one can understand until after becoming saved. It is impossible for
a "natural man" to know things spiritual, and until saved by God, everyone is a "natural man". So it is
basically saying that to understand the things of salvation, one has to first be saved by God because
no one can/will accept nor believe those things that they consider to be folly.

[Heb 8:10 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[2Ti 1:7 KJV]
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

[Rom 8:5, 7 KJV]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. ...
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Disagree. God is either the Saviour or He not -- there can be no middle ground. I know that He is so there's nothing for those saved to do-- not even necessary to accept the gift. So is He or isn't He?

For someone who doesn't even know if he is saved or not, you sure know a whole about being saved, and obviously more than them knowing they are saved.

It's like those declaring Jesus is not God, who admit they don't even know God, nor Jesus Christ, telling everyone who God is and who God is not.

Do you know God? Do you know Jesus Christ?

 

[rogerg]

Do you know God? Do you know Jesus Christ?

I know that He is the one and only Saviour in all ways. Do you?

 

[RBDERRICK]

(Gal 3:11) Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith.
(Gal 3:12) But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them.
(Gal 3:13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Your effort to accuse the righteous of being Pharisees fails, because you don't know the difference.

And you only make such accusation, because you are neither a saint nor a Pharisee, and so try to categorize all saints as Pharisees in order to justify your refusal to do the law of Christ: you neither do His law outwardly only like a Pharisee, nor with a pure heart of Christ as a saint walking in His steps.

(Jas 2:10) For whoever keeps the entire law, and yet stumbles at one point, is guilty of breaking it all.

True, which is why saints aren't hypocrites that are sinning against God in one area, while claiming to be righteous in other areas of the law:

Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? (Rom 2)

So, of course, the key is to be wholeheartedly pure and in love with Jesus in all His law, so that we are not sinning against Him at all.

I have never read in Scripture where God ever condemned His people for doing His law, but only the opposite, of them naming His name and refusing to do His law.

And avoiding doing His law so as to keep enjoying transgressing against it, does not help. And somehow finding fault with doing His law as something evil is hopeless.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Until you repent of condemning doing the good of the law as being evil, you have no hope of repenting of sinning against the law of God at all.

Not sinning against Jesus and His word is not evil, but very good to do, afterall, His sole purpose of dying on the cross was to forgive us of past sins, with power not to keep on sinning against Him as condemned transgressors of His law.

It's not hard to understand the simplicity of Jesus Christ, unless someone refuses to, because they still like sinning against Him and His law too much.

 

[D-D-W]

No. The point of the verse is that no one can understand until after becoming saved. It is impossible for
a "natural man" to know things spiritual, and until saved by God, everyone is a "natural man". So it is
basically saying that to understand the things of salvation, one has to first be saved by God because
no one can/will accept nor believe those things that they consider to be folly.

One cannot repent and become born again without first understanding what repentance is and why it is needed. The ability to understand and respond to the gospel John Wesley termed "prevenient grace."

Look at the context there in 1 Cor 2. The demonstration of the supernatural power of God. (v4) But then he speaks of a wisdom TO THE MATURE, not to new believers. (v6) This is echoed by the writer of Hebrews:

Heb 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Those are the mature believers that can accept that which is spiritually discerned. Hebrews is speaking to believers who should be there by now, but for some reason are NOT there.

 

[rogerg]

ou don't know the difference between being a justified doer of His righteousness, and an unpurified doer of the letter only, because all you see is the letter of the law outwardly, and not the spiritual cleansing from within first.

Once you seek the power of Jesus Christ to purify your heart within first, then you will know the difference between being righteous as He is righteous, and being a Pharisee of outward righteousness of the law only.

And so, your effort to accuse the righteous saints of being Pharis

Huh?

 

[rogerg]

One cannot repent and become born again without first understanding what repentance is and why it is needed. The ability to understand and respond to the gospel John Wesley termed "prevenient grace."

God is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Huh?

Ok, too many words maybe:

You have said you don't know if you are saved or not; therefore, how can you possibly know what is being saved or not?

And asking you if you know God and Jesus Christ, shouldn't get a 'huh?'

Unless you need more time to think about it. It's not a trick question.

 

[rogerg]

You have said you don't know if you are saved or not; therefore, how can you possibly know what is being saved or not?

And asking you if you know God and Jesus Christ, shouldn't get a 'huh?'

Unless you need more time to think about it. It's not a trick question.

So, you get to tell me how I can reply or if I can reply? Don't think so - that is way outside your sphere of control.
So, as with most of the things you post, I will ignore it.

[Mat 7:20 KJV] 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The fruit that I try to make visible is that Jesus Christ alone is Saviour, and we are not.

Jesus is the Bible:

[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

 

[Randy]

It is shown that Christ Jesus entering the temple in heaven by His blood. It is stated Jesus purchased people from all nations for God by His blood.

It is stated how God reconciled all people to Himself and the peace was by the blood of Jesus on the cross not by works of the law.
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

There are those who keep the law in various degrees but do not have Christ. They are still in their sins. They rule by their own authority and try to create their own righteousness.

The righteousness of God is credited by faith in Jesus and is not obtained by works of the law.

Outward signs given of a sincere faith in Christ or of one who claims Christ but does not do what He commands is another issue. (Good tree vs bad tree)

 

[D-D-W]

God is the Saviour, we are not.

OF course. But as Derek Prince used to say (and I believe he was quoting John Wesley)

God has His part and we have our part. We CANNOT do God's part and He WILL NOT do our part.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Huh?

All I have learned about OSAS is from themselves. One of their hallmarks of folly, is that while declaring how much sinners they still are, they are able to 'celebrate' grace that covers it all up.

They actually preach a blind grace and god that can no more see their sinning, because their souls are covered in blood, like a blind screen.

They make the blood of the Lamb into a once for all shedding of a bull or goat.

Their blood sacrifice only covers their sinning, so that their god can't see it, rather than the blood of the Lamb who washes away our sins, so as not to be doing them anymore.

And so, they celebrate grace like rockstars, while refusing to repent of sinning and to depart from all iniquity.

"Ceeeeelebrate that grace, C'mon! We're gonna have a party tonight!"

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If the child loves their parent, the ensuing behavior will be based on that love.
Same in our relationship with God and His Son.
If we love them, we will be happy to do their pleasure.

So every time children don’t please their parent they don’t love them? Do you really want to say that’s the sole motive in a child? There’s full obedience or zero love? Is that the measure you’d like your parents to have out on you? Or God should put on you? Full obedience or no love? I think that’s too either/or thinking and is a fallacy.

I do believe animals are capable of love, but have a different sort of nature.

Yes.

Explain the push for legal abortion.
If that isn't a modern custom influencing morality, what could be?

They have refined murder. Same reason there was slavery. They designated man as property, redefining the word.

Same goes for pornography, legal drugs, and road rage.
What was never deemed "moral" twenty years ago is now "just another day".

No, if it were done to them or someone they loved, they’d call it different.

They can be untaught though, by the weakening of man's customs.

They know the local customs, and what they can get away with.

That people enjoy evil doesn’t change the unborn understanding of good and evil. And, in fact, it’s possible to kill the conscience rendering a person dead to moral
choices regarding others. These people are REALLY scary!!

 

[rogerg]

OF course. But as Derek Prince used to say (and I believe he was quoting John Wesley)

God has His part and we have our part. We CANNOT do God's part and He WILL NOT do our part.

Respectfully, I disagree. If there's a "God''s part" and there's an "our part", then God isn't/can't be the Saviour
and His title of Saviour was bestowed inappropriately: only one can save and that someone is God. He did/does
all necessary for salvation

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[RBDERRICK]

So, you get to tell me how I can reply or if I can reply? Don't think so - that is way outside your sphere of control.
So, as with most of the things you post, I will ignore it.

[Mat 7:20 KJV] 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The fruit that I try to make visible is that Jesus Christ alone is Saviour, and we are not.

Jesus is the Bible:

[Heb 10:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

No, it's an honest question, that I would expect anyone to ask the same of me, while I am seeking to instruct others in the doctrine of Christ's salvation and justification.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. (1 Peter 3)

I have found those who declare Jesus is not God, but is only a created being for God like any man, are also them that cannot confess knowing Him, nor knowing God at all.

And I am seeing the same with those such as you that preach OSAS salvation while sinning against Christ and His law: you likewise cannot simply confess knowing God, not knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and God.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20)

I do know Jesus is God and is my Lord and my God, because I do receive Him according to the Scriptures with power to become a righteous son of God, and so delivers me from sinning today.

I no longer try to conceive Him and his salvation as something twisted out of Scripture, for the sole purpose of enabling me to continue sinning in this life and still be justified by Christ.

Your offense at the very question and non-answer simply proves the point.

And so, until you do have a good answer of confession in Jesus as your Lord and your God, whom you know for yourself within your heart, mind, and soul, then I have ceased pointlessly arguing over Scripture with you.

There simply comes the point, where the debate is purely intellection and of no profit whatsoever, and is just a tiresome burden.

And so, when you can confess Jesus as your Lord and your God, who delivers you from your sinning today, then I would love to hear what you then have to say about the doctrine and salvation of Jesus Christ from our sins.