Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[D-D-W]

If there's a "God''s part" and there's an "our part", then God isn't/can't be the Saviour
and His title of Saviour was bestowed inappropriately:

Wow.. Just - Wow.

Do you not see that all thru scripture God and man work together? God does the heavy lifting. We stay in His yoke and pull with Him.

Matthew 11:29
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

God's yoke means we must stay in step with Him while He does the pulling. But we have to stay there right beside him. We are in the yoke together.

only one can save and that someone is God. He did/does
all necessary for salvation

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You are taking God out of the yoke here. We are beyond incapable of pulling it.

You are making it an either/or. Our Lord makes it a both/and. We have our part and God has His part.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Wow.. Just - Wow.

Do you not see that all thru scripture God and man work together? God does the heavy lifting. We stay in His yoke and pull with Him.

Matthew 11:29
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

God's yoke means we must stay in step with Him while He does the pulling. But we have to stay there right beside him. We are in the yoke together.

You are taking God out of the yoke here. We are beyond incapable of pulling it.

You are making it an either/or. Our Lord makes it a both/and. We have our part and God has His part.

You are speaking to a person that does not confess to be saved, nor to knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and God.

The OSAS doctrine of having no part in being saved, is taught by them that declare they are still just as much depraved sinners as any unbeliever.

If we do not our part in working out our salvation with fear and trembling, then we have no part in the body of Christ, nor in His blessed resurrection of His church:

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Holy is as holy does: that's our part in the flesh.

He purifies us within by His blood, and makes us holy as He is in spirit, and we do accordingly. Simple.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor 11)

Those living unholy are because they are unholy, and have no holy part in Christ Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

Do you not see that all thru scripture God and man work together? God does the heavy lifting. We stay in His yoke and pull with Him.

Yes, I do not see that - at least not in terms of becoming saved. It is after becoming saved that we are to do the good work of sharing the gospel. I think you perceive it as work unto, or as part of, salvation. I on the other hand
perceive it as work resulting from salvation. Did you not read/understand the verses that I provided you?
They weren't made up by me, they were direct quotes from the Bible, and show that salvation
is by/from/through God alone. No pulling needed, possible or permitted for salvation's recipient to become saved.

 

[rthom7]

Greetings gentlemen, I have written on this forum for years now, but I noticed this thread and cannot resist, because understanding "amanuah" is the most important thing in Scripture. Some have posted it means more than believe, but also to obey, actually "amanuah" is not translated well in the KJV, especially in the first verse it is used. For there we have taken the wrong idea of it's use.

Israel were literal people and so guarded the precepts of the laws of God using their own human strength, which Paul calls the works of the law, they they stumbled over, because keeping the laws of God using your own human strength means nothing to God.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The first requirement is to submit, the Hebrew word there is kabash, the idea is to subdue. Strong's writes this meaning to tread on, which has evolved to mean that, it originally means to "press your arms towards" or to care and nurture, in English the word "surrender" comes to mind.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This verse is not saying the law is abolished in Jesus, but the laws of human effort for straightness is abolished, because you are not saved by human strength, but by "amanuah", this is the Hebrew word behind "pisteuo" related words.

At this point some reader might ask, why are we reading the Scriptures in Hebrew?

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

The Bible makes a prophecy that the Hebrew goes out to the people in another tongue, this was Greek.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

It's refreshing to read Scripture in English, yes, but rememer we read with stammering lips, as the verse says, and it is best to align the latter torah with the former torah and get the truth from the words we try to fathom.

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

What is interesting here is Jesus is "expounding" unto Jews how to read their Hebrew scrolls correctly, this word "expound" really means to "translate" or "interpret". So in other forums running into native speaking Jews does not mean they understand any better than we can, if we use the HS as our tutor.

I spend many months looking on the Internet to see if any person actually understood faith correctly, and I found none did. This is why Jesus says when He returns

Lu 18:8... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

So understanding what faith is and how you get it is important, and when you do the works of faith, these works are the result of Jesus power guarding the laws of God, not human effort, so we have a totally different process, which the Jews did not understand, but James did:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

When you do the works of faith in Jesus, these things are evidence you are saved by Jesus. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to become an apple tree. If you sow the Seed in your minds, the Seed grows and does works unto the Father, because of your faith in Him.

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (KJV)

The word "Son" here is actually "Seed", its a poetry simile, and the translators got confused.

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Seed, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

The Seed comes with eternal life in it, all you have to do is sow the Seed daily in your mind and allow His works yoked to your request, a service acceptable to our Heavenly Father. Shalom

 

[crossnote]

Nonsense. Ever see an atheist do something good for someone else spontaneously that gave the doer no benefit? I have, lots. Jesus says if you give a cup of cold water to a child you won’t lose your reward. Bad people sometimes do good for others. Doesn’t make them fit for Heaven nor does it make the inner man acceptable to live in Heaven. The good we do doesn’t get us entry into Heaven as all the bad inside and outside is still there and not undone by good deeds. Still, it is foolish to say only regenerated do anything good. It’s like an excuse for refusing to do the good before you. “I can’t because God has changed me enough yet.” Nonsense

I guess Jesus' words were nonsense?...

(Joh 15:5) I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Well, since you’ve received the free gift, do you then obey Hum 24/7? Does your conscience allow you to claim you are obedient since your theology tells you that you have already received?

Of course not as I don't espouse perfection in this life. We still have our body of the flesh to deal with. But through it , we are to grow in the faith by His grace.

 

[crossnote]

Your effort to accuse the righteous of being Pharisees fails, because you don't know the difference.

I know one thing, the Pharisees were experts at judging others like you just judged me.

And you only make such accusation, because you are neither a saint nor a Pharisee, and so try to categorize all saints as Pharisees in order to justify your refusal to do the law of Christ: you neither do His law outwardly only like a Pharisee, nor with a pure heart of Christ as a saint walking in His steps.

They say 'as a last resort, start making personal attacks.

So, of course, the key is to be wholeheartedly pure and in love with Jesus in all His law, so that we are not sinning against Him at all.

I have never read in Scripture where God ever condemned His people for doing His law, but only the opposite, of them naming His name and refusing to do His law.

Try this one then...

Galatians 3:10 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

And avoiding doing His law so as to keep enjoying transgressing against it, does not help. And somehow finding fault with doing His law as something evil is hopeless.

Who is avoiding His law when as regenerate in Christ, His laws are written in my new nature.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Until you repent of condemning doing the good of the law as being evil, you have no hope of repenting of sinning against the law of God at all.

Not sinning against Jesus and His word is not evil, but very good to do, afterall, His sole purpose of dying on the cross was to forgive us of past sins, with power not to keep on sinning against Him as condemned transgressors of His law.

Like I say you don't begin to know me.

It's not hard to understand the simplicity of Jesus Christ, unless someone refuses to, because they still like sinning against Him and His law too much.

48 years a Christian after a life of drugs, sexual perversion, the occult, gambling etc., where I couldn't hold a conversation for more than 20 seconds before my mind wandered, or a job for two weeks before my feet wandered.
Since then, I have been faithful to my wife for 36 years and am retired from my job after 28 years.
Like I said, you don't know me and are full of assumptions. Maturity is something the Lord would like us all to develop.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I guess Jesus' words were nonsense?...

I actually quoted Jesus words but in the context of writing without the "Scripture coming so heads up." Jesus said that "whoever gives one of these a cup of cold water shall not lose his reward." Did you miss it? He did not say that we cannot give anyone a cup of cold water without him doing it through us.

(Joh 15:5) I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Ah, now consider this verse. Let us THINK about it. He is talking about fruit. What is fruit? Character. He is not talking about doing good now and again. He also said that those who choose to abide in Him, will bear much fruit. That does not mean that those who refuse to do so have no fruit whatsoever. This is what you trying to make it say. Jesus did not say what you insist he did. The scripture you quote does not support your position that we can do nothing at all worth talking about unless we are Christians. Look around, does your position match the truth? Do you need me to point out the good that some not abiding have done?

Of course not as I don't espouse perfection in this life. We still have our body of the flesh to deal with. But through it , we are to grow in the faith by His grace.

This is what you said, "You can't separate the FREE GIFT from OBEDIENCE to Christ, it's a PACKAGE DEAL. Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other. Faith in the redemptive work of Christ is the ROOT, Obedience to Christ is the FRUIT." If you cannot separate the free gift from obedience to Christ, it is a package deal, that you ought to be 24/7 obedience to him since you have received the FREE GIFT. If obedience to Christ is a free gift and you have received the FREE GIFT and are not 24/7 obedient, what went wrong?

Do you know what it is? Your theology does not match real life. You have transferred the need for you to choose to obey to him making you obey and because obedience is not a FREE GIFT, you do not obey 24/7. Obedience is not a gift at all. Yes, it is he who is in us desiring and working through us to motivate us to choose to obey but we rebel. That reality you ignore and hence your theory does not match reality.

 

[crossnote]

I actually quoted Jesus words but in the context of writing without the "Scripture coming so heads up." Jesus said that "whoever gives one of these a cup of cold water shall not lose his reward." Did you miss it? He did not say that we cannot give anyone a cup of cold water without him doing it through us.

Are you saying even the good deeds that an unbeliever does count for something? At least that was your original intention.

Ah, now consider this verse. Let us THINK about it. He is talking about fruit. What is fruit? Character. He is not talking about doing good now and again. He also said that those who choose to abide in Him, will bear much fruit. That does not mean that those who refuse to do so have no fruit whatsoever. This is what you trying to make it say. Jesus did not say what you insist he did. The scripture you quote does not support your position that we can do nothing at all worth talking about unless we are Christians. Look around, does your position match the truth? Do you need me to point out the good that some not abiding have done?

I'm talking about the fruit that is offered in faith, for without faith ...

(Heb 11:6) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

This is what you said, "You can't separate the FREE GIFT from OBEDIENCE to Christ, it's a PACKAGE DEAL. Jesus and Paul do not contradict each other. Faith in the redemptive work of Christ is the ROOT, Obedience to Christ is the FRUIT." If you cannot separate the free gift from obedience to Christ, it is a package deal, that you ought to be 24/7 obedience to him since you have received the FREE GIFT. If obedience to Christ is a free gift and you have received the FREE GIFT and are not 24/7 obedient, what went wrong?

I thought I had explained that we have the flesh to contend with until we receive our bodies in glory.

Do you know what it is? Your theology does not match real life. You have transferred the need for you to choose to obey to him making you obey and because obedience is not a FREE GIFT, you do not obey 24/7. Obedience is not a gift at all. Yes, it is he who is in us desiring and working through us to motivate us to choose to obey but we rebel. That reality you ignore and hence your theory does not match reality.

I think you are confusing me with another conversation you had with someone else. I never said I obey 24/7, but CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE is imputed to my account as a free gift as if I had perfectly kept the law before God.

 

[Hopeful]

All I have learned about OSAS is from themselves. One of their hallmarks of folly, is that while declaring how much sinners they still are, they are able to 'celebrate' grace that covers it all up.

They actually preach a blind grace and god that can no more see their sinning, because their souls are covered in blood, like a blind screen.

They make the blood of the Lamb into a once for all shedding of a bull or goat.

Their blood sacrifice only covers their sinning, so that their god can't see it, rather than the blood of the Lamb who washes away our sins, so as not to be doing them anymore.

And so, they celebrate grace like rockstars, while refusing to repent of sinning and to depart from all iniquity.

"Ceeeeelebrate that grace, C'mon! We're gonna have a party tonight!"

Gotcha.
It is the "Harry Potter's cloak of invisibility" doctrine.

 

[crossnote]

They make the blood of the Lamb into a once for all shedding of a bull or goat.

Their blood sacrifice only covers their sinning, so that their god can't see it, rather than the blood of the Lamb who washes away our sins, so as not to be doing them anymore.

Really?

Hebrews 7:27 (KJV) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:2 (KJV) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Perhaps your conscience is still being bothered?

 

[Hopeful]

So every time children don’t please their parent they don’t love them?

The child loves something else more than the parent.

Do you really want to say that’s the sole motive in a child?

Motive? No.
Result, Yes.

There’s full obedience or zero love?

That does make sense.

Is that the measure you’d like your parents to have out on you? Or God should put on you? Full obedience or no love? I think that’s too either/or thinking and is a fallacy.

I wasn't a Christian when my parents still guided me.
Neither were they, so their own motives are now suspect.
God did "put that on" us.
Believe and live eternally or disbelieve and die a second death.
Either/or.

They have refined murder. Same reason there was slavery. They designated man as property, redefining the word.

Agreed.

No, if it were done to them or someone they loved, they’d call it different.

The victims will always see the crime differently than the criminal does.
But those who have had no part in the crime are "asleep at the wheel".

That people enjoy evil doesn’t change the unborn (sic) understanding of good and evil.

I have no way to agree or disagree with that.
Thanks be to God.

And, in fact, it’s possible to kill the conscience rendering a person dead to moral choices regarding others. These people are REALLY scary!!

I can agree with that.
I used to drink in order to be a different person.

 

[Hopeful]

Respectfully, I disagree. If there's a "God''s part" and there's an "our part", then God isn't/can't be the Saviour
and His title of Saviour was bestowed inappropriately: only one can save and that someone is God. He did/does
all necessary for salvation

[Tit 3:5-7 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Even a birthday gift has to be opened.
We have to hear, believe, and act on that belief.
God didn't want robots or puppets.

 

[Hopeful]

I thought I had explained that we have the flesh to contend with until we receive our bodies in glory.

Guess what.
We don't have the "flesh" to contend with.
It can be crucified and buried with Christ and then raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Also written, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The child loves something else more than the parent.

Do you not think that anyone ever does something because it is the right thing to do? That we are like the animals and only think in pleasing another (or ourselves?) What was gained when Adam and Eve ate the fruit? It is described as the knowledge of good and evil. (Now, you do not need the quote for that to know it is in the scripture, right?)

Motive? No.
Result, Yes.

That does make sense.

I wasn't a Christian when my parents still guided me.
Neither were they, so their own motives are now suspect.
God did "put that on" us.
Believe and live eternally or disbelieve and die a second death.
Either/or.

Have you ever heard the expression, "do this because it is the right thing to do?" How does this make any sense if we have no concept of right or wrong? How can we have any conscience that tells us something we did was wrong. It is not just that it displeased someone, it was morally wrong?

Agreed.

The victims will always see the crime differently than the criminal does.
But those who have had no part in the crime are "asleep at the wheel".

I have no way to agree or disagree with that.
Thanks be to God.

I can agree with that.
I used to drink in order to be a different person.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you saying even the good deeds that an unbeliever does count for something? At least that was your original intention.

Jesus said the books will be opened and each man will be judged by the deeds done in his life. That is what it says. Do you need the exact quote? (I am accused of not using scripture so I would appreciate if you know that this concept is in scripture in various places.)

I'm talking about the fruit that is offered in faith, for without faith ...

Fruit that is offered in faith? Where is that concept in the Bible? We do not "offer fruit" as Jesus describes it. The "fruit" (a metaphor) is the character that develops in us as we abide in him and do as he teaches. It is who we become.

(Heb 11:6) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Exactly. This is true but it is not fruit.

I thought I had explained that we have the flesh to contend with until we receive our bodies in glory.

If God gives a give of obedience, how come it is not sufficient? I know the theology but do you see that it does not match real life? (God does not give obedience and we are not promised he does anywhere in the Bible.) We have to choose that but He does help.

I think you are confusing me with another conversation you had with someone else. I never said I obey 24/7, but CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE is imputed to my account as a free gift as if I had perfectly kept the law before God.

How come the scripture says you will stand before him one day and give an account of the deeds you did while in the body if Christ's obedience and rewards are yours no matter what you do?

 

[rogerg]

Even a birthday gift has to be opened.
We have to hear, believe, and act on that belief.
God didn't want robots or puppets.

No. A gift doesn't become a gift until it is in the receiver's possession.
With the gift of salvation, once it is in the receiver's possession, it becomes the receiver - or rather the receiver becomes it - transforming them and making them into a new person. We are informed not only is salvation a gift, but that it is a free gift. By "free gift" we know that noting is needed on the receiver's part to be made in possession of it.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Greetings gentlemen, I have written on this forum for years now, but I noticed this thread and cannot resist, because understanding "amanuah" is the most important thing in Scripture. Some have posted it means more than believe, but also to obey, actually "amanuah" is not translated well in the KJV, especially in the first verse it is used. For there we have taken the wrong idea of it's use.

Israel were literal people and so guarded the precepts of the laws of God using their own human strength, which Paul calls the works of the law, they they stumbled over, because keeping the laws of God using your own human strength means nothing to God.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The first requirement is to submit, the Hebrew word there is kabash, the idea is to subdue. Strong's writes this meaning to tread on, which has evolved to mean that, it originally means to "press your arms towards" or to care and nurture, in English the word "surrender" comes to mind.

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

This verse is not saying the law is abolished in Jesus, but the laws of human effort for straightness is abolished, because you are not saved by human strength, but by "amanuah", this is the Hebrew word behind "pisteuo" related words.

At this point some reader might ask, why are we reading the Scriptures in Hebrew?

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

The Bible makes a prophecy that the Hebrew goes out to the people in another tongue, this was Greek.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

It's refreshing to read Scripture in English, yes, but rememer we read with stammering lips, as the verse says, and it is best to align the latter torah with the former torah and get the truth from the words we try to fathom.

Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

What is interesting here is Jesus is "expounding" unto Jews how to read their Hebrew scrolls correctly, this word "expound" really means to "translate" or "interpret". So in other forums running into native speaking Jews does not mean they understand any better than we can, if we use the HS as our tutor.

I spend many months looking on the Internet to see if any person actually understood faith correctly, and I found none did. This is why Jesus says when He returns

Lu 18:8... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

So understanding what faith is and how you get it is important, and when you do the works of faith, these works are the result of Jesus power guarding the laws of God, not human effort, so we have a totally different process, which the Jews did not understand, but James did:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

When you do the works of faith in Jesus, these things are evidence you are saved by Jesus. An apple tree bears apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to become an apple tree. If you sow the Seed in your minds, the Seed grows and does works unto the Father, because of your faith in Him.

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. (KJV)

The word "Son" here is actually "Seed", its a poetry simile, and the translators got confused.

Ps 2:12 Kiss the Seed, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

The Seed comes with eternal life in it, all you have to do is sow the Seed daily in your mind and allow His works yoked to your request, a service acceptable to our Heavenly Father. Shalom

I.e. works of the law without faith from the heart are therefore by the power and will of man: unacceptable to God and not justified by Christ.

Christ is the promised seed, that we are to sow daily in our hearts to be pure within, that we may be also cleansed without.

Translation into any language is sufficient to know the simplicity of inward and outward holiness by the faith of Jesus.

Stammering lips is the unknown heavenly language of angels spoken by man with the Holy Ghost in prayer and prophecy.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Gotcha.
It is the "Harry Potter's cloak of invisibility" doctrine.

I like your accurate wit.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Guess what.
We don't have the "flesh" to contend with.
It can be crucified and buried with Christ and then raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Also written, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Contending with the flesh and 'struggling' with sinning is the favorite warfare of OSAS: they blame it all on the physical body.

They are hearers who now 'struggle' with sinning, because they refuse to become overcomers doing the word: struggling is groveling, not overcoming.

Little children that repent of sinning are more mature than OSAS sinners will ever be: overcomers first must acknowledge that we are the sinners, not our bodies.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek 18)

It's the soul that sins and dies by sinning, not the flesh.

I feel sorry for the poor old hapless bodies that childish people blame their sinning on.

However, I am quite sure they take all the credit when they do anything good.

"Thank you very much for your help, sir." "Oh, don't thank me, thank my body."

When they sin, it's the flesh's fault. When they do anything good, it's the good-hearted soul doing it.

OSAS is a study in the ridiculous.

Some of them actually teach that the old man of sin is the natural body born of sinful nature, so that it's no longer their soul sinning with the flesh, but that old wicked sinful body doing the evil: all flesh is as grass, which is mortal, not sinful.

"It's not I that sinneth now, but only my old body of sinful flesh."

It's not even 'their' body anymore, because they've been spirited away into heavenly places to await their resurrected spiritual bodies.

"You see judge, that wasn't me that did that, because I am now a christian. That was just my old body that did it." "Yes, well, then it's your old body going to jail. If you choose not to go with it, then that's up to you."

And I know one who even teaches he has already recieved his eternal spiritual body, and the old body of sinful flesh will burned up with the old earth. I never knew how anyone could possibly believe the resurrection is past, until I heard that one.

They really do believe that being in Christ means when they do sin, not if, their soul is no longer responsible for it.

And just to make sure they are not condemned by God for sinning, they also do away with God's law altogether at the cross: Where no law is, there is no transgressing the law.

They can't even sin anymore, since the law of God is dead.

And so, they've got themselves completely covered from judgment for sinning.

If OSAS is not strong delusion, I don't know what is.

 

[rogerg]

Some of them actually teach that the old man of sin is the natural body born of sinful nature, so that it's no longer their soul sinning with the flesh, but that old wicked body doing the evil.

Do you actually read the Bible or just go on what your church teaches as doctrine?

[Rom 7:20-23, 25 KJV]
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. ...
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Rom 8:1 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.