Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[RBDERRICK]

Jesus said the books will be opened and each man will be judged by the deeds done in his life. That is what it says. Do you need the exact quote? (I am accused of not using scripture so I would appreciate if you know that this concept is in scripture in various places.)

Fruit that is offered in faith? Where is that concept in the Bible? We do not "offer fruit" as Jesus describes it. The "fruit" (a metaphor) is the character that develops in us as we abide in him and do as he teaches. It is who we become.

Exactly. This is true but it is not fruit.

If God gives a give of obedience, how come it is not sufficient? I know the theology but do you see that it does not match real life? (God does not give obedience and we are not promised he does anywhere in the Bible.) We have to choose that but He does help.

How come the scripture says you will stand before him one day and give an account of the deeds you did while in the body if Christ's obedience and rewards are yours no matter what you do?

I've heard the being 'gifted salvation' line of OSAS, but never being 'gifted obedience'.

OSAS christianity is sinners gifted with salvation, righteousness, and obedience, while still disobeying God.

The faith of Jesus is the gift, and Jesus never disobeys the Father.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. (Ps 106)

 

[RBDERRICK]

Do you actually read the Bible or just go on what your church teaches as doctrine?

[Rom 7:20-23, 25 KJV]
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. ...
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Rom 8:1 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No unsaved sinner can possibly teach the truth of Scripture.

Much less them that twist Scripture to excuse their sinning.

As, I said, once you repent and know Jesus Christ as your Lord and God, then I would love to hear the truth of Scripture from you.

All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field. (Isaiah 40)

Grass is mortal, not sinful.

It's the sinning soul that is the sinner, not the body.

"You see judge, that wasn't me that did that, because I am now a christian. That was just my old body that did it." "Yes, well, then it's your old body going to jail. If you choose not to go with it, then that's up to you."

 

[rogerg]

No unsaved sinner can possibly teach the truth of Scripture.

If you're referring to me, I never said I wasn't saved - you made that leap - I had said that I wasn't sure.
However, now that I think about it, and after listening to your version of salvation - I'm sure I am saved
and I owe it all to you - thanks.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"I never said I obey 24/7, but CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE is imputed to my account as a free gift as if I had perfectly kept the law before God."

One thing is for sure, no one can ever accuse sinners against God of obeying God at all, much less 24/7.

Being gifted obedience, while disobeying God, has got to be the most delusional thing I have ever heard from OSAS.

Actually, obedience to God is really only about 16/7, if we are getting a good night's sleep:

I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety. (Psalms 4)

 

[RBDERRICK]

If you're referring to me, I never said I wasn't saved - you made that leap - I had said that I wasn't sure.
However, now that I think about it, and after listening to your version of salvation - I'm sure I am saved
and I owe it all to you - thanks.

Thank God. Another saint in Christ Jesus that has repented of sinning.

Now, you can teach me about being a Christian saint, and not a sinner.

 

[rogerg]

Now, you can teach me about being a saint, and not a sinner.

I already have. Apparently, as usual, you either weren't listening or were unable to hear.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I know one thing, the Pharisees were experts at judging others like you just judged me.


They say 'as a last resort, start making personal attacks.


Try this one then...

Galatians 3:10 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Who is avoiding His law when as regenerate in Christ, His laws are written in my new nature.


Like I say you don't begin to know me.


48 years a Christian after a life of drugs, sexual perversion, the occult, gambling etc., where I couldn't hold a conversation for more than 20 seconds before my mind wandered, or a job for two weeks before my feet wandered.
Since then, I have been faithful to my wife for 36 years and am retired from my job after 28 years.
Like I said, you don't know me and are full of assumptions. Maturity is something the Lord would like us all to develop.

And so, I am personally attacking someone accusing me of being a Pharisee for doing the law righteously with a pure heart, by pointing out how they are accusing the righteous of being Pharisitically religious.

Right. And you call yourself a grown up? Stop acting like a child.

I am more than glad your christian religion as made you a better man and husband, as is your wife, children, and neighbors.

I have a good muslim neighbor just like you, and I love him as a neighbor just like you. He just doesn't name the name of Christ, which is better than good sinners like you doing so.

By your own teaching, the plain difference between you and me is that I am not a recovered alcoholic, but rather a saint in Christ Jesus, delivered from all manner of sinning, including being a drunkard.

And so now, I exhort you to purify your heart by the Spirit of Christ, and stop teaching christian religion for good sinners.

Giving sinners cover for sinning by grace is a lie: your doctrine counts the blood of the Lamb as no better than that of a bull or goat.

It makes you a great person in this life, like any good Jew, but a lousy saint in Christ Jesus: if your heart were pure of unrighteousness, you would not be teaching sinning while saved by grace.

God does not judge us for being successful good neighbors and faithful in marriage, but for being spiritually unclean within our souls:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezek 28)

So long as we are sinning within our hearts, then none of our good works will cover us in the judgment.

The problem is certainly not you being a good sinning christian, but that you teach being an unclean good christian to others.

You need to go on to perfection in Christ within your heart and soul, and stop preaching being a good sinner for Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

Or at least stop condemning the purified saints, because you are convicted of your spiritual errors.

Scripture does not say Cain was a drunken drug addict before arguing with and killing righteous Abel.

Once you begin purifying your heart of all lust, and casting down every unrighteous thought unto the obedience of Christ, then come and declare to me the power of becoming a son of God.

Until then, you can take your advocacy for being a saved sinner elsewhere. There are plenty of good and successful family men in the world, but the world needs more purified saints walking with Jesus step by step and hand in hand, as well as preaching the righteous doctrine of Christ.

I do not dishonor your recovered religious lifestyle, but only reject your teaching Christ as a just another religion for a recovered lifestyle.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I already have. Apparently, as usual, you either weren't listening or were unable to hear.

So, you now know you know God and Jesus Christ, and are no more a sinner sinning against Him and His law?

 

[rogerg]

So, you now know you know God and Jesus Christ, and are no more a sinner sinning against Him and His law?

Apparently, you didn't read the verses I that posted from Romans? I'll repost. Think about what Paul is saying and let it sink in (I included a few more verses to help your understanding).

[Rom 7:17, 20-25 KJV]
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ...
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Rom 8:1-4 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Apparently, you didn't read the verses I that posted from Romans? I'll repost. Think about what Paul is saying and let it sink in (I included a few more verses to help your understanding).

[Rom 7:17, 20-25 KJV]
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. ...
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
[Rom 8:1-4 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Back to teaching like a sinner again, because being a sinner is all you know.

Which is why you cannot confess being a son of God, knowing Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection.

As before, when you can confess knowing God and Jesus Christ as your Lord and God, with power to become a pure in heart son of God, then I will be glad to hear you teach the righteous doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Until then, I have no need for just another sinful gospel of a sinning christian.

For false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13)

The sign of a false christ is being a sinner, and wonder of a false christ is teaching being born of God while sinning against Him and His law.

 

[rogerg]

Back to teaching like a sinner again, because being a sinner is all you know.

Which is why you cannot confess being a son of God, knowing Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection.

As before, when you can confess knowing God and Jesus Christ as your Lord and God, with power to become a pure in heart son of God, then I will be glad to hear you teach the righteous doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Until then, I have no need for just another sinful gospel of a sinning christian.

And thereby are you are saying that of the Bible too because that is what I quoted to you. You've made up your own gospel with no basis in the Bible, yet you have no concern nor trepidation for it- it demonstrates the spirit within you for all to see. You are on very dangerous ground indeed - be very afraid!

 

[Hopeful]

Do you not think that anyone ever does something because it is the right thing to do?

The faithful do it all day long.

That we are like the animals and only think in pleasing another (or ourselves?) What was gained when Adam and Eve ate the fruit? It is described as the knowledge of good and evil. (Now, you do not need the quote for that to know it is in the scripture, right?)

Describes the unfaithful to a Tee.

Have you ever heard the expression, "do this because it is the right thing to do?" How does this make any sense if we have no concept of right or wrong? How can we have any conscience that tells us something we did was wrong. It is not just that it displeased someone, it was morally wrong?

We are talking abut adults, who have had many opportunities to offend or console, so they understand the phrase.
Does a one year old?

 

[Hopeful]

No. A gift doesn't become a gift until it is in the receiver's possession.

It will always be a gift.

With the gift of salvation, once it is in the receiver's possession, it becomes the receiver - or rather the receiver becomes it - transforming them and making them into a new person. We are informed not only is salvation a gift, but that it is a free gift. By "free gift" we know that noting is needed on the receiver's part to be made in possession of it.

I can't wait for the day of judgement to find my name is in the book of life, and then I can say to everyone else that I AM saved!

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

I remain "Hopeful".

 

[Hopeful]

I like your accurate wit.

More sorrowful that witty...

 

[Hopeful]

Contending with the flesh and 'struggling' with sinning is the favorite warfare of OSAS: they blame it all on the physical body.

They are hearers who now 'struggle' with sinning, because they refuse to become overcomers doing the word: struggling is groveling, not overcoming.

Little children that repent of sinning are more mature than OSAS sinners will ever be: overcomers first must acknowledge that we are the sinners, not our bodies.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek 18)

It's the soul that sins and dies by sinning, not the flesh.

I feel sorry for the poor old hapless bodies that childish people blame their sinning on.

However, I am quite sure they take all the credit when they do anything good.

"Thank you very much for your help, sir." "Oh, don't thank me, thank my body."

When they sin, it's the flesh's fault. When they do anything good, it's the good-hearted soul doing it.

OSAS is a study in the ridiculous.

Some of them actually teach that the old man of sin is the natural body born of sinful nature, so that it's no longer their soul sinning with the flesh, but that old wicked sinful body doing the evil: all flesh is as grass, which is mortal, not sinful.

"It's not I that sinneth now, but only my old body of sinful flesh."

It's not even 'their' body anymore, because they've been spirited away into heavenly places to await their resurrected spiritual bodies.

"You see judge, that wasn't me that did that, because I am now a christian. That was just my old body that did it." "Yes, well, then it's your old body going to jail. If you choose not to go with it, then that's up to you."

And I know one who even teaches he has already recieved his eternal spiritual body, and the old body of sinful flesh will burned up with the old earth. I never knew how anyone could possibly believe the resurrection is past, until I heard that one.

They really do believe that being in Christ means when they do sin, not if, their soul is no longer responsible for it.

And just to make sure they are not condemned by God for sinning, they also do away with God's law altogether at the cross: Where no law is, there is no transgressing the law.

They can't even sin anymore, since the law of God is dead.

And so, they've got themselves completely covered from judgment for sinning.

If OSAS is not strong delusion, I don't know what is.

ALL false doctrines accommodate sin.

 

[crossnote]

And so, I am personally attacking someone accusing me of being a Pharisee for doing the law righteously with a pure heart, by pointing out how they are accusing the righteous of being Pharisitically religious.

Right. And you call yourself a grown up? Stop acting like a child.

I am more than glad your christian religion as made you a better man and husband, as is your wife, children, and neighbors.

I have a good muslim neighbor just like you, and I love him as a neighbor just like you. He just doesn't name the name of Christ, which is better than good sinners like you doing so.

By your own teaching, the plain difference between you and me is that I am not a recovered alcoholic, but rather a saint in Christ Jesus, delivered from all manner of sinning, including being a drunkard.

And so now, I exhort you to purify your heart by the Spirit of Christ, and stop teaching christian religion for good sinners.

Giving sinners cover for sinning by grace is a lie: your doctrine counts the blood of the Lamb as no better than that of a bull or goat.

It makes you a great person in this life, like any good Jew, but a lousy saint in Christ Jesus: if your heart were pure of unrighteousness, you would not be teaching sinning while saved by grace.

God does not judge us for being successful good neighbors and faithful in marriage, but for being spiritually unclean within our souls:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezek 28)

So long as we are sinning within our hearts, then none of our good works will cover us in the judgment.

The problem is certainly not you being a good sinning christian, but that you teach being an unclean good christian to others.

You need to go on to perfection in Christ within your heart and soul, and stop preaching being a good sinner for Christ.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

Or at least stop condemning the purified saints, because you are convicted of your spiritual errors.

Scripture does not say Cain was a drunken drug addict before arguing with and killing righteous Abel.

Once you begin purifying your heart of all lust, and casting down every unrighteous thought unto the obedience of Christ, then come and declare to me the power of becoming a son of God.

Until then, you can take your advocacy for being a saved sinner elsewhere. There are plenty of good and successful family men in the world, but the world needs more purified saints walking with Jesus step by step and hand in hand, as well as preaching the righteous doctrine of Christ.

I do not dishonor your recovered religious lifestyle, but only reject your teaching Christ as a just another religion for a recovered lifestyle.

Luke 18:10-14 (KJV) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The faithful do it all day long.

Only the faithful do what is right because it is right? No one else. Everyone else does wrong all day long? I am encouraging you to match your thinking with the real world out there so that we as believers have an answer to the world that makes sense.

Describes the unfaithful to a Tee.

Does not answer the question. What did Adam and Eve gain after eating the fruit according to the Bible?

We are talking abut adults, who have had many opportunities to offend or console, so they understand the phrase.
Does a one year old?

A one year old child has not reached the age of accountability. At the age of accountability a human being becomes aware of moral right and wrong. The idea of doing right only in order to please a parent/master becomes weaker and doing right because it is morally right becomes stronger, in the faithful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've heard the being 'gifted salvation' line of OSAS, but never being 'gifted obedience'.

Me neither. The poster I am engaging with presented it to me for the first time. It is another step in the Calvinist theology that relieves them of having to choose to obey. God gives them the "gift of obedience" so their flesh never suffers denial.

OSAS christianity is sinners gifted with salvation, righteousness, and obedience, while still disobeying God.

The faith of Jesus is the gift, and Jesus never disobeys the Father.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. (Ps 106)

I do not know your own position, but I assume you are a Calvinist, right? If not the same applies. The scripture you quote actually says that those who keep (godly) judgment and do right at all times are blessed. This means that those who DO the teaching of Jesus are blessed. It means the opposite of those who claim they get Jesus' reward no matter what they do. And the scripture is true. Those who do what is right find that God blesses the work of their hands and minds. It is difficult to pinpoint but it is true. It is not true for those who believe it is true for them sans doing what Jesus taught. David also said, "I was young and now am old but I have not seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." As an old man he recognized that the righteous enjoy a blessing the ungodly do not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. A gift doesn't become a gift until it is in the receiver's possession.
With the gift of salvation, once it is in the receiver's possession, it becomes the receiver - or rather the receiver becomes it - transforming them and making them into a new person. We are informed not only is salvation a gift, but that it is a free gift. By "free gift" we know that noting is needed on the receiver's part to be made in possession of it.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Actually this is not so. If I sent my son a gift in the mail, it is a gift as soon as it leaves my hands. If he throws it away or it is lost, I still gave a gift. To the one giving, once the gift has left their control, it is a legitimate gift. What the receiver does cannot nullify the act of giving nor render the gift "ungifted."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Guess what.
We don't have the "flesh" to contend with.
It can be crucified and buried with Christ and then raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Also written, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Good post. We do not have to contend with the flesh if we choose differently. Those that are his have themselves crucified the flesh, as it were, with its affections and lusts. I actually think his talking about the physical body in these, but that is just an opinion.