Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Only the faithful do what is right because it is right? No one else. Everyone else does wrong all day long? I am encouraging you to match your thinking with the real world out there so that we as believers have an answer to the world that makes sense.

It made no sense because you added the word "only".
I didn't say "only".
The faithless will do right if it lifts themselves in the eyes of others.

Does not answer the question. What did Adam and Eve gain after eating the fruit according to the Bible?

They "gained" the knowledge of good and evil.

A one year old child has not reached the age of accountability. At the age of accountability a human being becomes aware of moral right and wrong.

Don't you wish "awareness" translated into "actions".

The idea of doing right only in order to please a parent/master becomes weaker and doing right because it is morally right becomes stronger, in the faithful.

It doesn't if the parent/master if the parent/master is morally above reproach.
The kids learn from their parents and from everyone else they meet on the way to "accountability".

 

[Hopeful]

Good post. We do not have to contend with the flesh if we choose differently. Those that are his have themselves crucified the flesh, as it were, with its affections and lusts. I actually think his talking about the physical body in these, but that is just an opinion.

It is only "pictures" to some, but it is reality to others.

 

[crossnote]

It is another step in the Calvinist theology that relieves them of having to choose to obey. God gives them the "gift of obedience" so their flesh never suffers denial.

He also gives us the Spirit of obedience that puts us through the rigors of discipline...

Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”
(Joh 21:18-19)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is only "pictures" to some, but it is reality to others.

True. It is a metaphor and so either it helps one in the struggle against sin or does not, as is the case in metaphors regarding understanding a matter. I, for example, do not relate to "crucify the flesh with its desires" as that does not present a picture that describes my struggle. For me, obedience to the Holy Spirit, which I admit is not a metaphor, is more helpful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He also gives us the Spirit of obedience that puts us through the rigors of discipline...

There is no "spirit of obedience" in the Scripture or in real life. There is obedience to the Spirit but not from the Spirit as a gift.

Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”
(Joh 21:18-19)

That scripture is not going to go far as to support your assuming that the one dressing and carrying you to where you do not want to go is the Holy Spirit carrying you to obedience. Is that what you mean to say? Really? You are using the scripture that even says it is talking about his death (which means it was written between 60-70 AD?)

 

[crossnote]

There is no "spirit of obedience" in the Scripture or in real life. There is obedience to the Spirit but not from the Spirit as a gift.

It's called being born again where we are given a new heart and will. Has this not happened to you?

That scripture is not going to go far to support your assuming that the one dressing and carrying you is the Holy Spirit carrying you to obedience. Is that what you mean to say? Really? You are using the scripture that even says it is talking about his death (which means it was written between 60-70 AD?)

Try these passages, since you discount the one from Jn 21...

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:33)

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
(Jer 32:40)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Heb 8:10)

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:5)

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Rom 8:9)

 

[Hopeful]

True. It is a metaphor and so either it helps one in the struggle against sin or does not, as is the case in metaphors regarding understanding a matter. I, for example, do not relate to "crucify the flesh with its desires" as that does not present a picture that describes my struggle. For me, obedience to the Holy Spirit, which I admit is not a metaphor, is more helpful.

It isn't a metaphor.
It is reality by faith.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
I "suffered in the flesh" at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-5)
From that grave I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It isn't a metaphor.
It is reality by faith.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
I "suffered in the flesh" at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-5)
From that grave I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6)

Hope, it’s a metaphor. Being a metaphor doesn’t mean it’s not true. If you say it’s raining cats and dogs, it doesn’t mean it’s sunny weather because pets aren’t falling out of the sky.

But no, it’s not by faith. “I have crucified the flesh” is something Paul says HE did. The scripture you quoted before said “he that crucified” which is not a statement of faith. It’s an act.

It’s just like saying “by faith I am a kind, generous and wise person.” Do you see the problem with that?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's called being born again where we are given a new heart and will. Has this not happened to you?

No born again person is given a spirit of obedience as it is never promised. Sorry it is not true. And drop the ad hominem.

Try these passages, since you discount the one from Jn 21...

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Jer 31:33)

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
(Jer 32:40)

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(Heb 8:10)

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:5)

God doesn’t give a spirit of obedience in that passage. Any longer observation of Christians tells you this as well. You assume that when God gives, it’s forced and all human freedom is overpowered. It a tyranny of the will, in your interpretation.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
(Rom 8:9)

Notice in Romans 8:5 the believer themselves has to SET THEIR OWN MIND either. It is our choice. It’s like there is no temptation that we cannot escape but we have to WANT to escape. That is a choice.

What you and Hopeful have in common is reading the words and thinking that how you imagine these to be carried out is a kind of overpowering change whereby, by faith, you behave differently regardless of how you really behave.

No one is so foolish as to claim that they are in detailed behavior like Jesus as it would be too apparent to the conscience that this just isn’t so (those who live and work with them could quickly point the flaws in that faith claim as well.) But the claim as you see it is you have the spirit of obedience but you admit you don’t really always obey. Begs the question why you think you have this never mentioned gift.

Hopeful claims her flesh is already crucified. By faith, her wrong desires are dead. This too begs the question as to whether or not she ever obeys wrong desires. It ought to be a “never ever as they are dead.”

I know the theological excuse for claiming by faith a moral character that isn’t manifest in choices. I just think the truth is better and that is, we have the promise of being completely free from sin when the body no longer is our home (next and real life.) Meanwhile, we have the chance here to show our love for Him by choosing to obey (a gift we cannot give if we are manipulated by the HS into obedience) and experience the thrill of how He responds when we do so AND, not least, we labor beside Him changing the world by our obedience. This view fits scripture and real life. It is when His Spirit that dwells in us grows.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It made no sense because you added the word "only".
I didn't say "only".
The faithless will do right if it lifts themselves in the eyes of others.

That makes it no longer right. And do you really believe that throughout human history no unbeliever ever does anything right because it’s morally right? Never ever? Only if others will think well of them?

They "gained" the knowledge of good and evil.

Exactly. They knew moral good from moral evil. That’s what you are denying and instead saying we only have the motivated to please a master/parent/other person, that’s it.

Don't you wish "awareness" translated into "actions".

It does many many times. Just watch unbelievers in a crises.

It doesn't if the parent/master if the parent/master is morally above reproach.

The desire in us is disconnected from the behavior in others at first at least.

The kids learn from their parents and from everyone else they meet on the way to "accountability".

If the moral awareness is not inborn, it cannot be taught. Hope, this is actually not a disputed point.

 

[rthom7]

I.e. works of the law without faith from the heart are therefore by the power and will of man: unacceptable to God and not justified by Christ.

Correct RBDerrick , works without faith mean nothing to God.

Stammering lips is the unknown heavenly language of angels spoken by man with the Holy Ghost in prayer and prophecy.

Not sure I agree, the verse says with stammering lips the Hebrew goes out into a new tongue, ie Greek and English, so the meaning of Scripture here is to read the messages of truth from a Hebraic perspective and than make your English themes from that.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm

Have a look at a study I did on faith, if you are interested. The Hebrew scholarship I use is Jeff Benner and his Ancient Hebrew Research Center. The word faith, is "amanuah" and comes within a family of related words.

Shalom

 

[rogerg]

Actually this is not so. If I sent my son a gift in the mail, it is a gift as soon as it leaves my hands. If he throws it away or it is lost, I still gave a gift. To the one giving, once the gift has left their control, it is a legitimate gift. What the receiver does cannot nullify the act of giving nor render the gift "ungifted."

Using your example, no, it actually never became a gift if its receiver hadn't received it.
Maybe in man's imperfect frame of reference and imprecise use of words we might
colloquially use it that way, but in this case, we are speaking about God, His Bible and
His power to bring His will to fruition: each and every word represents precisely what
He intended it mean. If God said that it is a gift (not that it is intended as a gift),
then it cannot be something which has not reached its intended recipient.

 

[D-D-W]

A one year old child has not reached the age of accountability. At the age of accountability a human being becomes aware of moral right and wrong.

I find no direct scriptural evidence of an "age of accountability."

 

[D-D-W]

ALL false doctrines accommodate sin.

Actually, since the Hebrew and Greek words translated "sin" in our english translations are archery terms meaning to "miss the mark," (the bulls eye) all false doctrine IS sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I find no direct scriptural evidence of an "age of accountability."

There are a lot of observations regarding humans that are not in the Bible. It’s not an exhaustive book on human psychology, physiology, or anatomy. Doesn’t mean that which we observe isn’t true.

 

[crossnote]

No born again person is given a spirit of obedience as it is never promised. Sorry it is not true. And drop the ad hominem.

God doesn’t give a spirit of obedience in that passage. Any longer observation of Christians tells you this as well. You assume that when God gives, it’s forced and all human freedom is overpowered. It a tyranny of the will, in your interpretation.

Notice in Romans 8:5 the believer themselves has to SET THEIR OWN MIND either. It is our choice. It’s like there is no temptation that we cannot escape but we have to WANT to escape. That is a choice.

What you and Hopeful have in common is reading the words and thinking that how you imagine these to be carried out is a kind of overpowering change whereby, by faith, you behave differently regardless of how you really behave.

No one is so foolish as to claim that they are in detailed behavior like Jesus as it would be too apparent to the conscience that this just isn’t so (those who live and work with them could quickly point the flaws in that faith claim as well.) But the claim as you see it is you have the spirit of obedience but you admit you don’t really always obey. Begs the question why you think you have this never mentioned gift.

Hopeful claims her flesh is already crucified. By faith, her wrong desires are dead. This too begs the question as to whether or not she ever obeys wrong desires. It ought to be a “never ever as they are dead.”

I know the theological excuse for claiming by faith a moral character that isn’t manifest in choices. I just think the truth is better and that is, we have the promise of being completely free from sin when the body no longer is our home (next and real life.) Meanwhile, we have the chance here to show our love for Him by choosing to obey (a gift we cannot give if we are manipulated by the HS into obedience) and experience the thrill of how He responds when we do so AND, not least, we labor beside Him changing the world by our obedience. This view fits scripture and real life. It is when His Spirit that dwells in us grows.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[D-D-W]

There are a lot of observations regarding humans that are not in the Bible. It’s not an exhaustive book on human psychology, physiology, or anatomy. Doesn’t mean that which we observe isn’t true.

Of course; but the so-called "age of accountability" is not a matter of psychology, physiology, or anatomy. It is a doctrinal issue on WHEN God holds us accountable for our actions and attitudes. And for doctrines, we need clear biblical statements.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course; but the so-called "age of accountability" is not a matter of psychology, physiology, or anatomy. It is a doctrinal issue on WHEN God holds us accountable for our actions and attitudes. And for doctrines, we need clear biblical statements.

No it’s not a doctrinal issue. Minors who commit offenses are not treated as adults because it’s known that their understanding of moral codes is weak. Being generous, they are treated as though they don’t really understand the moral wrong of their actions. If a country tried, say an 8 year old, as they do a 40 year old, we’d be aghast. This is commonly known.

 

[crossnote]

There are a lot of observations regarding humans that are not in the Bible. It’s not an exhaustive book on human psychology, physiology, or anatomy. Doesn’t mean that which we observe isn’t true.

So which age is observed as the ‘age of accountability’? (Even though God determines that, not man)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So which age is observed as the ‘age of accountability’? (Even though God determines that, not man)

Since when does God decide this for every individual on earth? Does God decide when Menses starts for every female? How about when a beard should start growing and the change of voice in men? How about ovulation? That would keep him very busy. How much micromanaging do you think he does and haven’t you studied human biology to some degree?