Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

When a person claims a promise not anywhere in the scripture, that’s pretty much the natural man expressing his desire.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Using your example, no, it actually never became a gift if its receiver hadn't received it.
Maybe in man's imperfect frame of reference and imprecise use of words we might
colloquially use it that way, but in this case, we are speaking about God, His Bible and
His power to bring His will to fruition: each and every word represents precisely what
He intended it mean. If God said that it is a gift (not that it is intended as a gift),
then it cannot be something which has not reached its intended recipient.

No giver would agree. If the recipient throws it away, it doesn’t change the fact that it was a gift. If a rich man gave a person 1 million dollars and they squandered it, the tax people still consider it a gift and tax it accordingly. “Well I don’t have it anymore” won’t save him. Would be convenient way to reduce taxes otherwise…just spend it all by Dec 31st.

 

[D-D-W]

No it’s not a doctrinal issue. Minors who commit offenses are not treated as adults because it’s known that their understanding of moral codes is weak.

How is when GOD decides a person is morally culpable NOT a doctrinal issue???

That would determine if an infant who dies goes to Heaven or hell. Or a 4 year old. Or a 9 year old. Or a 14 year old. Or a 20 year old. We could go on and on. And it is God, not some biological clock, that would make that determination.

I do not see any way it could be anything BUT a doctrinal issue.

 

[Hopeful]

Hope, it’s a metaphor. Being a metaphor doesn’t mean it’s not true. If you say it’s raining cats and dogs, it doesn’t mean it’s sunny weather because pets aren’t falling out of the sky.

It isn't a metaphor. It is an actual event.

But no, it’s not by faith. “I have crucified the flesh” is something Paul says HE did. The scripture you quoted before said “he that crucified” which is not a statement of faith. It’s an act.

I too have crucified the flesh, thanks to my being baptized into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)

It’s just like saying “by faith I am a kind, generous and wise person.” Do you see the problem with that?

OK, so if I credit faith with something, you don't think it is real.
Will you behold it as reality if your sentence is worded..."I am a kind, generous, and wise person because of my faith."
I was crucified with Christ, and buried with Him, by faith.
And I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life...by faith.

 

[Hopeful]

What you and Hopeful have in common is reading the words and thinking that how you imagine these to be carried out is a kind of overpowering change whereby, by faith, you behave differently regardless of how you really behave.

One can only say they behave the actual way they behave.
Any other behavior would make the statement a lie.

No one is so foolish as to claim that they are in detailed behavior like Jesus as it would be too apparent to the conscience that this just isn’t so (those who live and work with them could quickly point the flaws in that faith claim as well.)

It is written..."Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Hopeful claims her flesh is already crucified. By faith, her wrong desires are dead. This too begs the question as to whether or not she ever obeys wrong desires. It ought to be a “never ever as they are dead.”

I, (he), never obey temptations, thanks be to God, the new nature, and the Holy Ghost within me.
I walk in the Spirit, not is the flesh, thanks be to God.

 

[Hopeful]

That makes it no longer right. And do you really believe that throughout human history no unbeliever ever does anything right because it’s morally right? Never ever? Only if others will think well of them?

I can't speak for the ungodly.

Exactly. They knew moral good from moral evil. That’s what you are denying and instead saying we only have the motivated to please a master/parent/other person, that’s it.

So they were not born with it.

It does many many times. Just watch unbelievers in a crises.

The desire in us is disconnected from the behavior in others at first at least.

If the moral awareness is not inborn, it cannot be taught. Hope, this is actually not a disputed point.

I disagree.

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, since the Hebrew and Greek words translated "sin" in our english translations are archery terms meaning to "miss the mark," (the bulls eye) all false doctrine IS sin.

I pluralized the word "doctrines", so you missed that point in your derail.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

One can only say they behave the actual way they behave.

Is this saying something?

Any other behavior would make the statement a lie.

The statement or belief that one is of certain character is not reflected in actual behavior, it is a lie.

It is written..."Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Absolutely!! Amen!!!

I, (he), never obey temptations, thanks be to God, the new nature, and the Holy Ghost within me.
I walk in the Spirit, not is the flesh, thanks be to God.

So you are sinless? Do the people around you agree that you never give in to temptation to be unjustly angry or say words Jesus wouldn’t have said or respond without kindness and compassion?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can't speak for the ungodly.

You never observe them? You have no dealings with unbelievers?

So they were not born with it.

They were born with it same as babies are born with the anatomy to reproduce.

I disagree.

You are in the minority and have no rational explanation for human behavior or Gods punishment for evil behavior.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How is when GOD decides a person is morally culpable NOT a doctrinal issue???

It is inborn to happen after years of growth. God didn’t actively decide when. That’s what you asked.

That would determine if an infant who dies goes to Heaven or hell. Or a 4 year old. Or a 9 year old. Or a 14 year old. Or a 20 year old. We could go on and on. And it is God, not some biological clock, that would make that determination.

The age of knowing moral choices comes unbidden. That’s the point. God judging is an entirely different matter.

I do not see any way it could be anything BUT a doctrinal issue.

When the police decide a youth is not morally mature enough to stand trial as an adult, that’s not a doctrinal issue. This is a fact of human development since the rebellion in Eden and it’s surprising some don’t see it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It isn't a metaphor. It is an actual event.

Ok, we can move on. I think you don’t know what a metaphor is but think it’s something untrue.

I too have crucified the flesh, thanks to my being baptized into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)

So your never ever disobey Jesus choosing instead your own (freshly) desires? Never ever?

OK, so if I credit faith with something, you don't think it is real.
Will you behold it as reality if your sentence is worded..."I am a kind, generous, and wise person because of my faith."
I was crucified with Christ, and buried with Him, by faith.
And I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life...by faith.

So by faith do you declare yourself to be a kind, generous and wise person? I’m curious. Do the words “crucified the flesh” mean your flesh never expresses itself in impatience, insults, selfishness?

I suppose there are christians who claim, by faith, that they are near to Jesus in character. Probably not easy.

 

[Hopeful]

You never observe them? You have no dealings with unbelievers?

Still, I can't speak for them.

They were born with it same as babies are born with the anatomy to reproduce.

Why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil such a danger, if your POV is right?

You are in the minority and have no rational explanation for human behavior or Gods punishment for evil behavior.

You are right about me having no rational explanation for human behavior.
But God's punishment is pure, and honestly fair.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok, we can move on. I think you don’t know what a metaphor is but think it’s something untrue.

I feel you are using the word "metaphor" to imply a lack of reality to the subject.

So your never ever disobey Jesus choosing instead your own (freshly) desires? Never ever?

Never, thanks be to God...and rebirth, among other gifts from God.

So by faith do you declare yourself to be a kind, generous and wise person? I’m curious.

I don't know how to measure "wise".
But my faith has provoked me to be kind and generous.

Do the words “crucified the flesh” mean your flesh never expresses itself in impatience, insults, selfishness?

Correct, as the old "fleshly" minded me was killed with Christ.

I suppose there are Christians who claim, by faith, that they are near to Jesus in character. Probably not easy.

Isn't that the idea behind being a Christian?
To be like Him?
It is written..."Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I feel you are using the word "metaphor" to imply a lack of reality to the subject.

Thanks for responding. That is not what a metaphor is. The Bible is full of metaphors. Jesus is the lamb of God a metaphor. I am the door is a metaphor. Under his wings is a metaphor. Our God is a rock is a metaphor. Hebrews love metaphors.

Never, thanks be to God...and rebirth, among other gifts from God.

So you are sinless?

I don't know how to measure "wise".
But my faith has provoked me to be kind and generous.

Everyone else says this of you as well? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Generally speaking wisdom is knowing how make decisions that further the good and true.

Correct, as the old "fleshly" minded me was killed with Christ.

Isn't that the idea behind being a Christian?
To be like Him?
It is written..."Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

I’m asking if others say this describes you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Still, I can't speak for them.

I’m not asking you to speak FOR them but of them. Do you ever notice how others behave?

Why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil such a danger, if your POV is right?

The enemy said something similar. Just look at the world. Is it full of justice?

You are right about me having no rational explanation for human behavior.
But God's punishment is pure, and honestly fair.

Ok, well I applaud your honesty. You do have some remarkable character qualities Hope.

 

[crossnote]

Since when does God decide this for every individual on earth? Does God decide when Menses starts for every female? How about when a beard should start growing and the change of voice in men? How about ovulation? That would keep him very busy. How much micromanaging do you think he does and haven’t you studied human biology to some degree?

Your god is too small.

 

[crossnote]

When a person claims a promise not anywhere in the scripture, that’s pretty much the natural man expressing his desire.

When a person is not born again, that is definitely the natural man expressing themselves.

 

[rogerg]

No giver would agree. If the recipient throws it away, it doesn’t change the fact that it was a gift. If a rich man gave a person 1 million dollars and they squandered it, the tax people still consider it a gift and tax it accordingly. “Well I don’t have it anymore” won’t save him. Would be convenient way to reduce taxes otherwise…just spend it all by Dec 31st.

So, you are saying that it is possible, at least in theory, that no one comes into possession of the gift since it is up to them that in order to have it, they had to accept it, and thereby, that no one might be saved, is that your point?
Using the customs of mankind as a template to measure the promises of God is inappropriate and will lead to incorrect assumptions and conclusions.

Anyway, even using your examples, for someone to be able to throw away or squander the gift, means the gift had to have been in their possession in the first place. But remember, it is not the same with God's gifts as it is with man's. Once in possession of God's, those who get it become changed into a new person and given a renewed mind: If they truly have it, they would/could never thereafter choose to not have it - or as you say, to throw it away.

 

[Hopeful]

Thanks for responding. That is not what a metaphor is.

I know it isn't, but it seemed you were using it in a way to make our death with Christ "unreal".

The Bible is full of metaphors. Jesus is the lamb of God a metaphor. I am the door is a metaphor. Under his wings is a metaphor. Our God is a rock is a metaphor. Hebrews love metaphors.

Jesus isn't really a Lamb though, is He?
Your use of "metaphor" causes me to think you don't believe Rom 6:6 is real.

So you are sinless?

Yes.
My repentance from sin was real.

Everyone else says this of you as well? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Generally speaking wisdom is knowing how make decisions that further the good and true.
I’m asking if others say this describes you.

I have no idea what others say or think of me, but none of them can say I have done them wrong.
To the glory of God, and rebirth, and the name of Jesus Christ in whom I was baptized for the remission of past sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the word, etc.

To continue talking about freedom from sin we will need to PM each other.
The authorities here don't agree with me and have banned me in the past for this topic.

 

[Hopeful]

I’m not asking you to speak FOR them but of them. Do you ever notice how others behave?

Yes, I notice.

The enemy said something similar. Just look at the world. Is it full of justice?

Can you provide the scripture where the enemy "said something similar"?
As I wrote, if your POV that the knowledge of good and evil is innate, why didn't Adam and Eve already know before eating the fruit what was good or evil?

Ok, well I applaud your honesty. You do have some remarkable character qualities Hope.

OK.