Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I notice.

Ok, I was asking you to notice others and see if what you think about them matches how they really are. That is, you do not think there is a knowledge of good and evil but merely pleasing others.

Can you provide the scripture where the enemy "said something similar"?

When the Devil tempted Eve to eat so that would get the knowledge of good and evil and become like God. You asked why the knowledge of good and evil was such a danger. The enemy also painted the picture of it not being a danger but an advantage. It is a stretch but he was selling the rebellion under the guise of it being desirable for them.

As I wrote, if your POV that the knowledge of good and evil is innate, why didn't Adam and Eve already know before eating the fruit what was good or evil?

OK.

It is innate in us now. It was not at creation. The account of the eating of the forbidden fruit is the explanation as to why we know good and evil, why we alone in the world are moral creatures. We understand moral good that is not connected to our benefit or anyone else's. There are matters that are evil or good and it does not mean someone is pleased or benefitted. Moral good can displease all the people there and it can result in no benefit at all to them or us.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I know it isn't, but it seemed you were using it in a way to make our death with Christ "unreal".

Well, if the body gets up again and pursues the same old sins as before the "death," it was not real to God or man. Jesus talked about the way we actually live and treat others, not merely how we think about ourselves.

Jesus isn't really a Lamb though, is He?
Your use of "metaphor" causes me to think you don't believe Rom 6:6 is real.

Why do you think that? Jesus is not a literal lamb or door or light but those metaphors help us understand what he offers.

Yes.
My repentance from sin was real.

Of course it was. That is not a metaphor. I am not sure there is a metaphor for repentance of sin. Would have to think about it. But being a metaphor is a way to understand a matter better.

I have no idea what others say or think of me, but none of them can say I have done them wrong.

Is this because of your faith of because of your real deeds?

To the glory of God, and rebirth, and the name of Jesus Christ in whom I was baptized for the remission of past sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the word, etc.

To continue talking about freedom from sin we will need to PM each other.
The authorities here don't agree with me and have banned me in the past for this topic.

Sounds good, my dear. Been there experienced that as well.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok, I was asking you to notice others and see if what you think about them matches how they really are. That is, you do not think there is a knowledge of good and evil but merely pleasing others.

I think there is knowledge of good and evil.
They do one or the other for self satisfaction.

When the Devil tempted Eve to eat so that would get the knowledge of good and evil and become like God. You asked why the knowledge of good and evil was such a danger.

I don't really recall writing that.

The enemy also painted the picture of it not being a danger but an advantage. It is a stretch but he was selling the rebellion under the guise of it being desirable for them.

Ok, yes he did.

It is innate in us now. It was not at creation.

Agreed.
Isn't it amazing how many and how often folks go against what is innate to them?

The account of the eating of the forbidden fruit is the explanation as to why we know good and evil, why we alone in the world are moral creatures.

OK.

We understand moral good that is not connected to our benefit or anyone else's. There are matters that are evil or good and it does not mean someone is pleased or benefitted. Moral good can displease all the people there and it can result in no benefit at all to them or us.

Do you feel that a child abandoned/lost on an island for twenty years will have the same sense of right and wrong as a child who grows up in a family, among neighbors?
Would that not be the best test of the theory?

 

[Hopeful]

Well, if the body gets up again and pursues the same old sins as before the "death," it was not real to God or man. Jesus talked about the way we actually live and treat others, not merely how we think about ourselves.

Agreed.

Why do you think that? Jesus is not a literal lamb or door or light but those metaphors help us understand what he offers.

I think that because you raised the question of metaphors when I wrote of my death with Christ at my baptism...from Rom 6.
My death was no metaphor, but the end of the old me.

Of course it was. That is not a metaphor. I am not sure there is a metaphor for repentance of sin. Would have to think about it. But being a metaphor is a way to understand a matter better.

A good metaphor for repentance from sin is the actins of Caleb and Joshua in the desert with Moses.
They alone didn't lose faith in God and wish to return to Egypt (sin).

Is this because of your faith or because of your real deeds?

Because of my real deeds, done with love and faith in God who regenerated me from His seed.

Sounds good, my dear. Been there experienced that as well.

OK.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed.

I think that because you raised the question of metaphors when I wrote of my death with Christ at my baptism...from Rom 6.
My death was no metaphor, but the end of the old me.

I think it was the “I am crucified with Christ” which clearly is a metaphor. You weren’t literally crucified.

A good metaphor for repentance from sin is the actins of Caleb and Joshua in the desert with Moses.
They alone didn't lose faith in God and wish to return to Egypt (sin).

But that’s not a metaphor. That literally happened. A metaphor might be the hand to the plow and turning back.

Because of my real deeds, done with love and faith in God who regenerated me from His seed.

OK.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When a person is not born again, that is definitely the natural man expressing themselves.

There are those who claim to be born again and claim promises He never made.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, you are saying that it is possible, at least in theory, that no one comes into possession of the gift since it is up to them that in order to have it, they had to accept it, and thereby, that no one might be saved, is that your point?

Huh! I said a gift is given the moment it leaves the giver’s control. That is a fact. That’s all I said.

If you want to talk about receiving the gift of salvation that’s a different matter. That’s receiving a gift, not giving it.

Using the customs of mankind as a template to measure the promises of God is inappropriate and will lead to incorrect assumptions and conclusions.

Not so. Jesus and the prophets and God use the customs of mankind frequently to convey truth. Do you need examples? Think
of the parables.

Anyway, even using your examples, for someone to be able to throw away or squander the gift, means the gift had to have been in their possession in the first place. But remember, it is not the same with God's gifts as it is with man's. Once in possession of God's, those who get it become changed into a new person and given a renewed mind: If they truly have it, they would/could never thereafter choose to not have it - or as you say, to throw it away.

That’s the OSAS theology for sure.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your god is too small.

Ah, contrar Pierre!

 

[D-D-W]

Since when does God decide this for every individual on earth? Does God decide when Menses starts for every female? How about when a beard should start growing and the change of voice in men? How about ovulation? That would keep him very busy. How much micromanaging do you think he does and haven’t you studied human biology to some degree?

God knows every hair on your head and mine. He knows the path of every electron in billions of galaxies. And still He has plenty of time to relate to you and me personally.

How does any of that keep Him too busy?

 

[crossnote]

There are those who claim to be born again and claim promises He never made.

Such as this promise?…

John 3:3 ESV
[3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[crossnote]

Ah, contrar Pierre!

Je ne m'appelle pas Pierre.
Your #420 post surely indicated it so.

 

[rogerg]

Huh! I said a gift is given the moment it leaves the giver’s control. That is a fact. That’s all I said.

The gift in question is salvation, if not what? Wasn't the logical conclusion of your point that it is prerogative of the receiver of the gift to do what they will with the gift - to either accept or discard? If so, based upon that, there would be no guarantee that anyone will choose to accept it, meaning no one will be saved, and also no guarantee that everyone won't accept it, meaning everyone will be saved -- logically speaking, either alternative would be possible. However, we know from the Bible neither actually is possible because God has promised some will be given eternal life and some won't. Therefore, by His promise alone, we can know that some MUST become saved, and therefore, they do not have an option not to be saved, and conversely, that others do not have an option to be saved. For those saved it means God places/ed the gift into their possession without their acquiescence. For the others, He did/does not.

[Gen 22:18 KJV] 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later

 

[rogerg]

Such as this promise?…

John 3:3 ESV
[3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This one too:

1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God knows every hair on your head and mine. He knows the path of every electron in billions of galaxies. And still He has plenty of time to relate to you and me personally.

How does any of that keep Him too busy?

The fact is God made a great deal to run on its own not requiring his active tinkering. We refer to this as science.

The gift in question is salvation, if not what? Wasn't the logical conclusion of your point that it is prerogative of the receiver of the gift to do what they will with the gift - to either accept or discard?

That is how gifts are. If there is no choice, it’s not a gift anymore.

If so, based upon that, there would be no guarantee that anyone will choose to accept it, meaning no one will be saved, and also no guarantee that everyone won't accept it, meaning everyone will be saved -- logically speaking, either alternative would be possible.

Why do you need guarantees at all?

However, we know from the Bible neither actually is possible because God has promised some will be given eternal life and some won't.

That’s because some respond and others do not.

Therefore, by His promise alone, we can know that some MUST become saved, and therefore, they do not have an option not to be saved, and conversely, that others do not have an option to be saved.

That does not at all logically follow. Doesn’t mean all people in all nations.

For those saved it means God places/ed the gift into their possession without their acquiescence. For the others, He did/does not.

No, “for as many as received him…”. “Whosoever will..” “Many are called but..”

[Gen 22:18 KJV] 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

And we are blessed by the changes the world has seen

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later

Ok

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Such as this promise?…

John 3:3 ESV
[3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

No but of course, I cannot show you promises not made by God because they aren’t there. A good starting place are the conditional promises that are assumed to be fixed in cement.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Je ne m'appelle pas Pierre.
Your #420 post surely indicated it so.

Alas, French is not my second tongue. Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

My post did not indicate this. You mistake my counting what God doesn’t do as me saying what God cannot do. I am fairly well acquainted with the ways of God and so understand what He does and doesn’t do both generally and exceptions. It’s different than making up stuff and assuming He acts accordingly because He could.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This one too:

1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Notice the seed is incorruptible, not the man. Notice the Word abides forever, not necessarily the man. Fighting against works by using scripture that does not support your position does not convince others.

 

[rogerg]

That is how gifts are. If there is no choice, it’s not a gift anymore.

C'mon - a gift is something that benefits someone but which they didn't purchase - it is given free of charge.

Why do you need guarantees at all?

Because the gift has to be consistent with, and supportive of, God's promise. If the gift is not given (to include its possession) then there is nothing to ensure it conforms to the promise.

That’s because some respond and others do not.

If that is true, then God's promise is of no effect

That does not at all logically follow. Doesn’t mean all people in all nations.

Don't follow your point

No, “for as many as received him…”. “Whosoever will..” “Many are called but..”

Those who receive Him are those who were chosen to receive the gift.
I don't think you follow/understand about God's promise. It seems you are ignoring it.

And we are blessed by the changes the world has seen

Don't follow your point.

 

[RBDERRICK]

ALL false doctrines accommodate sin.

You would be amazed at abundance of things taught just to do away with James 2.

One even teaches the resurrection is past. I never knew how anyone could teach that, as though their mortal bodies were now considered resurrected.

What they say is that they sit in heavenly places already having their new immortal spiritual body, while their old body still goes on sinning, until it dies and it burned up with the old earth.

They teach their physical bodies are the old man of sin, and is dead on the cross.

I advise them not to go around telling people that their bodies are dead, because before they can explain they mean spiritually dead, someone might offer them a whip to flail themselves with, in order to make sure their bodies stay dead.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Luke 18:10-14 (KJV) Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee walked away still self-righteous, and the sinner walked away no more sinning, but doing the law righteously.

If you're still beating your chest with sinning, then you just need to repent, and start doing the law of Christ righteously as well.

Fornicators, drunkards, thieves, idolaters, profane people, etc... shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Jesus came to saved sinners such as yourself from transgressing His law, and to purify the hearts of them only doing the law outwardly.

God never ever rebuked His people for doing His law, but only for refusing to do His law.

Only modern christian hypocrites hate the law of God and actually condemn them doing it.

Lucifer was the first one to hate God and His law.