Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Notice the seed is incorruptible, not the man. Notice the Word abides forever, not necessarily the man. Fighting against works by using scripture that does not support your position does not convince others.

So apple seeds can bring forth peaches?
Every seed can only bring forth after itself.
If incorruptible seed brings forth after its self, its fruit will also be incorruptible.

 

[Hopeful]

You would be amazed at abundance of things taught just to do away with James 2.

Amen.
Even more have been dreampt up to do away with Matt 5:48.

One even teaches the resurrection is past. I never knew how anyone could teach that, as though their mortal bodies were now considered resurrected.

Not the final resurrection.

What they say is that they sit in heavenly places already having their new immortal spiritual body, while their old body still goes on sinning, until it dies and it burned up with the old earth.

The "old" body is the one raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, and is inhabited by the Spirit of God.
We are His temple on earth now.

They teach their physical bodies are the old man of sin, and is dead on the cross.

If they believed that, it would not be able to commit sin.

I advise them not to go around telling people that their bodies are dead, because before they can explain they mean spiritually dead, someone might offer them a whip to flail themselves with, in order to make sure their bodies stay dead.

Only the "dead" can be born again.
Was your rebirth only spiritual and not physical?
I mean, did it happen, really?
Their bodies may be dead, but they are dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

C'mon - a gift is something that benefits someone but which they didn't purchase - it is given free of charge.

Correct, but the recipient must receive it.

Because the gift has to be consistent with, and supportive of, God's promise. If the gift is not given (to include its possession) then there is nothing to ensure it conforms to the promise.

What do you think are the required elements promised? Why does a gift have to confirm to anything except it’s possible to refuse it?

If that is true, then God's promise is of no effect

Not at all. Most of his promises are contingent depending upon factors.

Don't follow your point


Those who receive Him are those who were chosen to receive the gift.

That is your theology. It is unique to that theology and is not universally held to be true.

I don't think you follow/understand about God's promise. It seems you are ignoring it.

Not at all. I take them as written with no changes nor requirements from me necessary to be a promise. When He says “if you, then I…” I believe it.

Don't follow your point.

The nations who have embraced or allowed the church to flourish are blessed.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Me neither. The poster I am engaging with presented it to me for the first time. It is another step in the Calvinist theology that relieves them of having to choose to obey. God gives them the "gift of obedience" so their flesh never suffers denial.

I do not know your own position, but I assume you are a Calvinist, right? If not the same applies. The scripture you quote actually says that those who keep (godly) judgment and do right at all times are blessed. This means that those who DO the teaching of Jesus are blessed. It means the opposite of those who claim they get Jesus' reward no matter what they do. And the scripture is true. Those who do what is right find that God blesses the work of their hands and minds. It is difficult to pinpoint but it is true. It is not true for those who believe it is true for them sans doing what Jesus taught. David also said, "I was young and now am old but I have not seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging for bread." As an old man he recognized that the righteous enjoy a blessing the ungodly do not.

I'm a Christian, not a Calvinist.

You and I believe the same in doing righteousness at all times, and not sinning against CHrist and His law.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. (Ps 106)

We do so by grace through His faith, first having a purified heart by receiving Jesus with power to do so.

Sinning christians desire to worship Jesus Christ as the true God, but only idolize His life as a man worthy of high honor, but have not recieved His power to walk in His steps.

His commandments of righteousness and truly holiness are only high ideals, but not actual commandments to be obeyed in this life.

The hypocrites go on to declare the letter of His commandments are dead, and anyone seeking to obey them according to the letter are Pharisees.

They think they have the law of the Spirit without the letter: being spiritual within while remaining bodily corrupt.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3)

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.(2 Cor 7)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So apple seeds can bring forth peaches?

Huh? I don’t follow you. The word of God is imperishable. Men are not.

Every seed can only bring forth after itself.
If incorruptible seed brings forth after its self, its fruit will also be incorruptible.

The parable of the seeds addresses this. It was always the same seed. Very different outcomes despite the same seed.

 

[Hopeful]

Huh? I don’t follow you. The word of God is imperishable. Men are not.

The vessel counts for nothing.
What is inside it is incorruptible.

The parable of the seeds addresses this. It was always the same seed. Very different outcomes despite the same seed.

Seed can only bring forth after itself, from the very beginning.
You are mixing in a parable with a differing intent.
The seed, no matter of which sort, can will only bring forth more of the same.
The parable you allude to now involves only the keeping or rejecting of the seed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The vessel counts for nothing.
What is inside it is incorruptible.

Just because the Word, the seed, is imperishable doesn’t mean the soil (vessel) counts for nothing.

Seed can only bring forth after itself, from the very beginning.
You are mixing in a parable with a differing intent.

No, it’s the same.

The seed, no matter of which sort, can will only bring forth more of the same.
The parable you allude to involves only the keeping or rejecting of the seed.

No, the scripture says the Word is imperishable. How successful the resulting harvest is depends upon the soil. That the plan from the beginning doesn’t change (fruit from that seed) doesn’t guarantee the outcome.

 

[rogerg]

What do you think are the required elements promised? Why does a gift have to confirm to anything except it’s possible to refuse it?

The element promised is salvation. It must conform because God promised the gift and God does not lie. If He promised it, then being His promise, He Himself would bring it to fruition, thereby is it dependent only upon God and God alone and not dependent upon man's acceptance nor his rejection of it. The promise to Abraham was not an if-then-else promise - it was/is an unconditional promise. Here it is again below.

The verse says nothing at all of man needing to, or being able to, contribute to the justifying, but that God would provide it. It further says that He chose salvation to come through the loins of Abraham and by it all nations would be blessed - again a blessing accomplished by God not man.

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[rthom7]

The element promised is salvation. It must conform because God promised the gift and God does not lie. If He promised it, then being His promise, He Himself would bring it to fruition, thereby is it dependent only upon God and God alone and not dependent upon man's acceptance nor his rejection of it. The promise to Abraham was not an if-then-else promise - it was/is an unconditional promise. Here it is again below.

The verse says nothing at all of man needing to, or being able to, contribute to the justifying, but that God would provide it. It further says that He chose salvation to come through the loins of Abraham and by it all nations would be blessed - again a blessing accomplished by God not man.

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Well said Rogerg

Salvation is a person, given to mankind as a gift, but there are many attitudes we must do to receive this gift, the most important being the ability to forgive others as God has forgiven you. If you hold any grudges against you partner, or your fellow neighbour, or church friends, God will not forgive you and your salvation gift is null and void. This attitude is clearly spelled out in the unforgiving parable. Mt 18:27

Other attitudes include being meek and humble before Jesus every day, otherwise the flow of his powers doe snot come into you via faith in HIs words. This is the theme of this thread, allowing the works of Jesus to empower you every day. Shalom

 

[crossnote]

A good starting place are the conditional promises that are assumed to be fixed in cement.

I find conditional promises in the Mosaic Covenant, is that your relationship to God?

 

[crossnote]

Alas, French is not my second tongue. Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

My post did not indicate this. You mistake my counting what God doesn’t do as me saying what God cannot do. I am fairly well acquainted with the ways of God and so understand what He does and doesn’t do both generally and exceptions. It’s different than making up stuff and assuming He acts accordingly because He could.

Ich spreche kein Deutsch, ...although my biological dad was German, I never knew him.
You know about God and His ways, but do you know Him experientially?

 

[crossnote]

The Pharisee walked away still self-righteous, and the sinner walked away no more sinning, but doing the law righteously.

Is this the Bible according to RBDERRICK? (psst, it's a sin to add our own words to Scripture).

If you're still beating your chest with sinning, then you just need to repent, and start doing the law of Christ righteously as well.

I beat my chest knowing what a great sinner I am in comparison to the Holiness of God.

Fornicators, drunkards, thieves, idolaters, profane people, etc... shall not inherit the kingdom of God

Care to finish Paul's thought?...

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB) Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Jesus came to saved sinners such as yourself from transgressing His law, and to purify the hearts of them only doing the law outwardly.

I'll stand with Paul...

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not sure where you stand.

God never ever rebuked His people for doing His law, but only for refusing to do His law.

He only rebuked people for pretending they keep the law, e.g. ...

Matthew 23:29a (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! (read to the rest of the chapter).

Only modern christian hypocrites hate the law of God and actually condemn them doing it.

We call them theological liberals...one's who hate God's Word, and so add to it and take away from it, twisting it every which way.

Lucifer was the first one to hate God and His law.

Well, that's one true thing you've said so far, but if you are implying I fit that mold you are wrong. I gave you my testimony earlier but you just took it and turned it against me just as Jesus said would happen...

Matthew 7:6 (KJV) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I gave it to show that God does His work from the inside out, beginning with the new birth, imparting His Spirit, and writing His law on our hearts, which He has done for me. Think what you want but your judgment means little; I know whom I believe in and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day. (2Ti 1:12)

 

[GodsGrace]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We are justified by faith.
We are sanctified by works.

It is by the pure grace of God, the love He shows for us, that we become born again when we call upon His name.
This is justification. We are now considered to be a member of the Kingdom of God...His family...a son/daughter.

Once this happens we are then required to do good works to be in good standing within this Kingdom that Jesus meant to create here on earth. The invisible Kingdom of which we are a part and which should have a positive effect on the world around us by how we behave and treat others.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

Agreed.
But you stated by the faith of Jesus.
We are saved by OUR faith.
If we were saved by Christ's faith, we wouldn't need God's grace.

In Acts 16 the jailer is told that he should believe in the Lord Jesus and he would be saved.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Agreed.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

Agreed.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

Faith does change our works.
It makes them pleasing to God.
If we do not believe in God and yet do many works,,,will we be saved?
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we are saved by faith and not by works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

Goodness. You sound like Pelagius.
What is the Holy Spirit for?

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

I THINK the above is correct...but it doesn't seem to agree with your prior statements.
Sorry I got here so late.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Agreed. By ourselves we can do nothing...
and we do grow in our sanctification.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I believe I agree with you.

WORKS has become a rather unpleasant word in our Christian faith.

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is a person, given to mankind as a gift, but there are many attitudes we must do to receive this gift, the most important being the ability to forgive others as God has forgiven you. If you hold any grudges against you partner, or your fellow neighbour, or church friends, God will not forgive you and your salvation gift is null and void. This attitude is clearly spelled out in the unforgiving parable. Mt 18:27

Thank you for your reply, rthom7 but respectfully, I must disagree.
To become saved, I believe, is solely dependent upon whether God has chosen a particular person for it and not based upon anything else. Acquiring it is far, far beyond our ability to purchase it by leveraging anything that we may consider valid spiritual tender, even to include those things you mentioned: it is by God's good pleasure and nothing else.

The crux of 18:27 when applied to the gospel, is that those who have been saved know that Christ has removed them from under the curse of law. Therefore, anyone claiming to be a Christian and yet trying to coerce his Christain
brother into being under law (as the wicked servant did), means they have not become saved themselves, remain under law, and are thereby subject to God's judgement. Not being subject to the law's judgement through Christ, is the gospel's centerpiece: without law, there can be no sin.

Regarding the gift of salvation, once given to someone, it is immutable because it is by Christ as Saviour, not of ourselves; that is, since we didn't earn it, neither can we cause it to be lost

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for your reply, rthom7 but respectfully, I must disagree.
To become saved, I believe, is solely dependent upon whether God has chosen a particular person for it and not based upon anything else. Acquiring it is far, far beyond our ability to purchase it by leveraging anything that we may consider valid spiritual tender, even to include those things you mentioned: it is by God's good pleasure and nothing else.

The crux of 18:27 when applied to the gospel, is that those who have been saved know that Christ has removed them from under the curse of law. Therefore, anyone claiming to be a Christian and yet trying to coerce his Christain
brother into being under law (as the wicked servant did), means they have not become saved themselves, remain under law, and are thereby subject to God's judgement. Not being subject to the law's judgement through Christ, is the gospel's centerpiece: without law, there can be no sin.

Regarding the gift of salvation, once given to someone, it is immutable because it is by Christ as Saviour, not of ourselves; that is, since we didn't earn it, neither can we cause it to be lost

What exactly do you mean by UNDER THE LAW?

The reformed believe in good works more than, maybe, any other denomination.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Not the final resurrection.

The "old" body is the one raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, and is inhabited by the Spirit of God.
We are His temple on earth now.

If they believed that, it would not be able to commit sin.

Only the "dead" can be born again.
Was your rebirth only spiritual and not physical?
I mean, did it happen, really?
Their bodies may be dead, but they are dead in trespasses and sins.

He goes beyond spiritualizing the first resurrection as being born again, to also include the resurrection of the body. He says the mortal body cannot be resurrected, because it is the sinful old man. He's already got his immortal spiritual body in heaven just like the angels.

Normal OSAS believers do not go that far. They just think their souls are preserved blameless in heaven, while they wait for their old mortal bodies to die and stop sinning, so that it can be resurrected for them brand-spanking new and immortal.

The serious error of all of OSAS, is they think their hearts and minds do not need to be pure from lust and unrighteous thought for sin in this life, but only in the next, when their spiritual bodies will them that way.

They have no trust in God to stop sinning with their mortal bodies, and yet they trust God will stop them from sinning, by giving them immortal bodies.

They give lip service to now hating sinning, rather than enjoying it.

If they believed that, it would not be able to commit sin.

True, but no one is accusing them of being consistent, except consistently wrong.

The consistent method to their madness is always to justify themselves by faith alone.

Here's another one: they even teach Christ killed His own law on the cross, so that it no longer exists on paper to judge any man. Therefore, whatsoever they do by faith is the law. They make themselves a law unto themselves, and so long as they believe it, that's it. They are the definition of foolish children playing games with Scripture.

I.e. they are the just who live by their faith, whose faith is whatever they say it is. No Scripture can gainsay it. They do away with the law of God and scripture as the objective judge of truth.

The natural man says there is no God, and these natural men claiming to be spiritual say there is no law of God.

Only the "dead" can be born again.
Was your rebirth only spiritual and not physical?
I mean, did it happen, really?
Their bodies may be dead, but they are dead in trespasses and sins.

Being born again is spiritual, while yet in the same mortal body.

The body however is also cleansed in that it is no more made subject to sinning, which hastens the corruption of mortal flesh.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Both the spirit and the flesh are circumcised in Christ: the foreskin of lust from the heart, and the foreskin of sinning with the flesh.

Both the spirit and the body are baptised to rise again in newness of life.

Their bodies may be dead, but they are dead in trespasses and sins.

Exactly. Let them tell it to any judge how their dead bodies did the crime, not themselves who sit in heavenly places. The judge would tell them their bodies are therefore going to prison, and they are free to join their bodies, if they want to.

If such OSAS is not truly the strong delusion of any last days on earth, I don't know what is.

I am truly fascinated to see how they think they have found the deep things of God, when they have only dived into the depths of Satan.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Just because the Word, the seed, is imperishable doesn’t mean the soil (vessel) counts for nothing.

No, it’s the same.

No, the scripture says the Word is imperishable. How successful the resulting harvest is depends upon the soil. That the plan from the beginning doesn’t change (fruit from that seed) doesn’t guarantee the outcome.

I believe the proper balance here is that mortal flesh is nothing more than grass: the hidden man of the heart is the ground receiving the true seed and growing thereby.

The error of the hypocrite is that not just the mortal flesh, but sinning with the flesh is nothing, when the soul is 'unconditionally' preserved in Christ Jesus.

When the incorruptible seed Christ Jesus is received with power, then the old sinner becomes a new saint, though still in mortal flesh.

The hidden man of the heart is purified, so that the flesh is cleansed from sinning, though still mortal.

So long as the flesh is still sinning, it's because the soul is still a sinner with the same old corruptible seed of sin.

The mystery hidden in Christ, is that every soul is created living and pure to be born of mortal flesh, but when the soul sins, it is no more made by the Spirit of Christ and is now made of sin.

Being born again is to become once again a living and purified soul by receiving the seed of Christ, but now with knowledge of the truth, not to be sinning in the spirit nor with the flesh:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3)

 

[RBDERRICK]

"I find conditional promises in the Mosaic Covenant, is that your relationship to God?"

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15)

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2)

Sinners know nothing about the law of Moses, the law of Christ, nor a relationship with God, other than as enemies:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4)

"You know about God and His ways, but do you know Him experientially?"

No man knows God 'experientially', only Personally or not at all:

Be still, and know that I am God. (Ps 46)

I suppose sinners know all about being 'experiential' with God, while knowing Him not at all; otherwise, they wouldn't talk about being 'experiential' with Him. I know I would never even think of it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Is this the Bible according to RBDERRICK? (psst, it's a sin to add our own words to Scripture).


I beat my chest knowing what a great sinner I am in comparison to the Holiness of God.


Care to finish Paul's thought?...

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB) Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


I'll stand with Paul...

1 Timothy 1:15 (KJV) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Not sure where you stand.


He only rebuked people for pretending they keep the law, e.g. ...

Matthew 23:29a (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! (read to the rest of the chapter).


We call them theological liberals...one's who hate God's Word, and so add to it and take away from it, twisting it every which way.


Well, that's one true thing you've said so far, but if you are implying I fit that mold you are wrong. I gave you my testimony earlier but you just took it and turned it against me just as Jesus said would happen...

Matthew 7:6 (KJV) Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I gave it to show that God does His work from the inside out, beginning with the new birth, imparting His Spirit, and writing His law on our hearts, which He has done for me. Think what you want but your judgment means little; I know whom I believe in and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day. (2Ti 1:12)

Only a sinner would think Paul was chiefest of sinners in Christ Jesus.

He was the chiefest example of how Jesus can save to the uttermost any sinner from sinning.

As a sinner, do you know God?

When you are sinning, are you of the devil or born of God?

 

[crossnote]

Only a sinner would think Paul was chiefest of sinners in Christ Jesus.

Paul said I am...(present tense) chief of sinners. So you are calling Paul a sinner, and he agrees.

He was the chiefest example of how Jesus can save to the uttermost any sinner from sinning.

Paul never used the word 'example'...there you go again adding to Scripture.

As a sinner, do you know God?

As a forgiven and justified sinner...yes!

When you are sinning, are you of the devil or born of God?

When I am sinning, I am a child of God being disobedient.