Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[RBDERRICK]

We are justified by faith.
We are sanctified by works.

This is an interesting way of putting it, but not accurate. We are sanctified within by the Spirit first with the purifying of the heart, that we may be indeed sanctified in the flesh with works of His righteousness.

It is when the inner sanctification becomes outer sanctification that we become justified by Christ: Abraham was not justified with God, until after he had offered up Isaac.

Until inward sanctification becomes outward, the inward sanctification is not yet complete: so long as we are still sinning with the flesh, the heart is not yet purified, and no amount of good works, along with sinning, justifies us with God.

It is by the pure grace of God, the love He shows for us, that we become born again when we call upon His name.
This is justification. We are now considered to be a member of the Kingdom of God...His family...a son/daughter.

No, this is imputed righteousness with desire to do His righteousness and please Him in the flesh. Justification by Christ is not until we are doing so bodily:

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Gal 2)

We seek God by faith, we seek to be justified by God by works of faith, which do not include sinning.

Once this happens we are then required to do good works to be in good standing within this Kingdom that Jesus meant to create here on earth. The invisible Kingdom of which we are a part and which should have a positive effect on the world around us by how we behave and treat others.

True. We are commanded unto good works, but we first stop the sinning. Any man can do good by his neighbor, but that does not make him a justified son of God.

Though man no doubt appreciates good works done for them, no works are any good with God, if we are still sinning elsewhere: salvation is not becoming good sinners doing more good than evil.

If any man is sinning, he is of the devil and not born of God, and all past righteousness for good is forgotten by God.

Why? Because we have forgotten God, if we are sinning for the devil.

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. (Judges 3)

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1)

God is the God of now and today only, not yesterday, nor tomorrow that may not come.

But you stated by the faith of Jesus.
We are saved by OUR faith.
If we were saved by Christ's faith, we wouldn't need God's grace.

No we are not saved by our own personal faith: our personal faith is not the law of Christ.

This is a grievous error of many Christians: equating their personal faith as the faith of God, as though whatsoever they believe is truth of God: we can believe what we want, but if it is not Scripture of truth, then it is not necessarily true and of God.

The only faith that saves us is the faith of Jesus: which is receiving the faith He had as man on earth, to believe and obey the Father in all things according to the scriptures.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2)

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14)

The faith of Jesus is the law of Christ written in Scripture: our personal faith is our conscience, which we ought not to defile within the law of Christ.

If our faith is contrary to Scripture, then our faith must change, as well as our lives by faith.

The Galatians were erring by their faith, in believing the liars that outward circumcision is necessary in Christ Jesus: our faith is our conscience only, not the faith and law of Christ as written in Scripture.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name. (Rom 1)

We must live by our faith so as not to defile our conscience, whether it be weak or strong, but we must obey the faith of Jesus as written in Scripture, within whose law we have liberty to exercise our personal faith accordingly: once we begin to think we are to obey our own faith, then we begin to be a law unto ourselves by our own faith, and the faith and law of Christ in Scripture is no more obeyed by us as Christ and God.

Our faith is how we personally walk with Jesus within His law, but the faith of Jesus is the common faith of Scripture for the common salvation of Christ:

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1)

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1)

Within the law of Christ we have liberty according to our faith, to eat and drink or not, but the faith of Jesus does not ever transgress His law.

2 Peter 1 teaches us not to think too highly of ourselves by our faith, by making our personal faith to be equal to Scripture and law of Christ: there are plenty of private interpretations of Scripture for a believer to follow in their own lives by personal faith, but only Scripture is the rule and law of Christ, that all believers must follow to be born and justrified of Christ.

If by personal faith I do not drink wine, I am not therefore justified in preaching drink not as the common faith of Jesus for all Christians to obey: I would then make myself a false teacher of the faith of the church, by preaching my own personal faith for that of Jesus and law of Christ.

If we were saved by Christ's faith, we wouldn't need God's grace.

If we have not recieved the faith of Jesus, we are not saved at all, nor are we under grace, but are delusionally saved by our own faith and our own imagination of grace: OSAS grace is filthy excuse for sinning.

(Not speaking of you personally, but of OSAS filthy believers.)

In Acts 16 the jailer is told that he should believe in the Lord Jesus and he would be saved.

Believing in the Lord Jesus is receiving His faith, to no more trust in our own faith and conscience, but to trust in Jesus' faith written in Scripture.

By the faith of Jesus did the prophets and apostles write all Scripture:

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19)

That is the faith we not only must receive, but also obey.

Receiving Jesus is receiving His faith to trust in Scripture only, and not in our own faith, mind, and imagination of thought:

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim 3)

Our faith must conform to His faith found in Scripture, not His faith and Scripture conform to our own minds.

Goodness. You sound like Pelagius.
What is the Holy Spirit for?

I don't know Pelagius, but every created spiritual being from Lucifer to Adam has power to think, intend, imagine and do accordingly.

Natural man uses this power to gain a corruptible crown, but saints in Christ Jesus have power for an incorruptible crown: the Holy Spirit is given only to them that obey Him, and not just to rule our minds for success in this life, but to have rule over all the heart and body to please God in spirit and flesh:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

Tiger Woods is famous for having perfect rule over his heart and mind to win golf tournaments, but not to win Christ.

 

[rogerg]

What exactly do you mean by UNDER THE LAW?

The reformed believe in good works more than, maybe, any other denomination.

Not under law - under grace. Those whom it was God's good pleasure to save through Christ, are no longer under the judgement of law. This doesn't mean those saved shouldn't do good works because they should, but those good works will come from salvation but not as a pathway to salvation.
There is a lot to this topic, so it is a little difficult to address it effectively in a few lines with a few verses. So, if I can
clarify further, let me know.

[Rom 6:14, 22-23 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ...
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.\

[Col 2:13-14 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[crossnote]

No, you are a liar being a disobedient child of the devil claiming to be born of God:

Well good bye then, you don't want to be talking to what you accused me of.
Oh, btw, you have been reported.

 

[Hopeful]

Just because the Word, the seed, is imperishable doesn’t mean the soil (vessel) counts for nothing.

The soil is "us", in 2 of the three places the "seed" is mentioned. (Parable of the sower, Matt 13, Luke 8)

No, it’s the same.

But I am referring to another use of the "seed" from 1 John 3:9-10.
Check them out...Matt 13, and 1 John 3:9-10.
They are not the same.
Perhaps you are thinking of Matt and Luke's recounting of the same parable?

No, the scripture says the Word is imperishable. How successful the resulting harvest is depends upon the soil. That the plan from the beginning doesn’t change (fruit from that seed) doesn’t guarantee the outcome.

The "soil" is us, in the Matt and Luke parables, but the seed of God is what we are gendered from in 1 John 3:9-10.

 

[Hopeful]

Well said Rogerg

Salvation is a person, given to mankind as a gift, but there are many attitudes we must do to receive this gift, the most important being the ability to forgive others as God has forgiven you. If you hold any grudges against you partner, or your fellow neighbour, or church friends, God will not forgive you and your salvation gift is null and void. This attitude is clearly spelled out in the unforgiving parable. Mt 18:27

Other attitudes include being meek and humble before Jesus every day, otherwise the flow of his powers doe snot come into you via faith in HIs words. This is the theme of this thread, allowing the works of Jesus to empower you every day. Shalom

The key to your post was "we must".

 

[Hopeful]

He goes beyond spiritualizing the first resurrection as being born again, to also include the resurrection of the body. He says the mortal body cannot be resurrected, because it is the sinful old man. He's already got his immortal spiritual body in heaven just like the angels.

I agree with you that it is an error he puts forth.

Normal OSAS believers do not go that far. They just think their souls are preserved blameless in heaven, while they wait for their old mortal bodies to die and stop sinning, so that it can be resurrected for them brand-spanking new and immortal.

Really wrong doctrine they uphold...but it does accommodate more sinning.

The serious error of all of OSAS, is they think their hearts and minds do not need to be pure from lust and unrighteous thought for sin in this life, but only in the next, when their spiritual bodies will them that way.
They have no trust in God to stop sinning with their mortal bodies, and yet they trust God will stop them from sinning, by giving them immortal bodies.
They give lip service to now hating sinning, rather than enjoying it.

The devil is crafty.

True, but no one is accusing them of being consistent, except consistently wrong.
The consistent method to their madness is always to justify themselves by faith alone.

The devils "believe", and tremble. (paraphrase)

Here's another one: they even teach Christ killed His own law on the cross, so that it no longer exists on paper to judge any man. Therefore, whatsoever they do by faith is the law. They make themselves a law unto themselves, and so long as they believe it, that's it. They are the definition of foolish children playing games with Scripture.

They may have missed the scripture saying the Law was made for sinners..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Tim 1:9)

I.e. they are the just who live by their faith, whose faith is whatever they say it is. No Scripture can gainsay it. They do away with the law of God and scripture as the objective judge of truth.
The natural man says there is no God, and these natural men claiming to be spiritual say there is no law of God.

Just accommodation for sin...

Being born again is spiritual, while yet in the same mortal body.

It is a new body, and a new creature.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"All things are become new".

The body however is also cleansed in that it is no more made subject to sinning, which hastens the corruption of mortal flesh.

I don't know about that "hastens" business.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Both the spirit and the flesh are circumcised in Christ: the foreskin of lust from the heart, and the foreskin of sinning with the flesh.

Yep, the new creature has a divine nature now.

Both the spirit and the body are baptized to rise again in newness of life.

Baptized into Christ, and into His death and burial, and then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

Exactly. Let them tell it to any judge how their dead bodies did the crime, not themselves who sit in heavenly places. The judge would tell them their bodies are therefore going to prison, and they are free to join their bodies, if they want to.
If such OSAS is not truly the strong delusion of any last days on earth, I don't know what is.
I am truly fascinated to see how they think they have found the deep things of God, when they have only dived into the depths of Satan.

Keep working on how to answer their doctrine with concise scriptural backing.
Make a log book with the scriptures that refer to your replies to their tenets/questions/points.
Then move on to the next "doctrine".

 

[Hopeful]

We are sanctified within by the Spirit first with the purifying of the heart, that we may be indeed sanctified in the flesh with works of His righteousness.

I can't agree with this.

It is when the inner sanctification becomes outer sanctification that we become justified by Christ: Abraham was not justified with God, until after he had offered up Isaac.

Sanctification of both happens simultaneously.

Until inward sanctification becomes outward, the inward sanctification is not yet complete: so long as we are still sinning with the flesh, the heart is not yet purified, and no amount of good works, along with sinning, justifies us with God.

We can't be clean on the "inside" and "dirty-sinful" on the outside at the same time..

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The soil is "us", in 2 of the three places the "seed" is mentioned. (Parable of the sower, Matt 13, Luke 8)

I agree, we are the soil.

But I am referring to another use of the "seed" from 1 John 3:9-10.
Check them out...Matt 13, and 1 John 3:9-10.
They are not the same.

9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’sb seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

I think they are the same. The seed is still the Word of God which is, btw, a metaphor. This verse addresses willful known sin that a person who has the HS in them doesn’t do. Not that they are sinless but because as one walks with Him, the nearness to Him is directly related to the degree of holiness one actually practices. This is how John makes that claim. Those who have Him with them and in them (born from above which is also a metaphor) do not continually and freely choose to do wrong to others (sin.) This is where the love for your brother comes in.

Perhaps you are thinking of Matt and Luke's recounting of the same parable?

The "soil" is us, in the Matt and Luke parables, but the seed of God is what we are gendered from in 1 John 3:9-10.

The soil is us but soil is never generated from a seed. “For God’s seed abides in him” excludes the idea that the seed generates him. The words cannot mean that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm a Christian, not a Calvinist.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

You and I believe the same in doing righteousness at all times, and not sinning against CHrist and His law.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times. (Ps 106)

We do so by grace through His faith, first having a purified heart by receiving Jesus with power to do so.

There is also a bending of our own will and refusing wrong desires that we must choose in real time points.

Sinning christians desire to worship Jesus Christ as the true God, but only idolize His life as a man worthy of high honor, but have not recieved His power to walk in His steps.

I’m hesitant to lump them all together and hesitant to ascribe a simple motive to them. I think it’s more complex.

His commandments of righteousness and truly holiness are only high ideals, but not actual commandments to be obeyed in this life.

He himself said the commands He gives are not that difficult so this is not the Biblical view you reflect. Do you need that reference?

Besides, his power is sufficient to bring about obedience in the compliant heart. Is anything to difficult for God?

The hypocrites go on to declare the letter of His commandments are dead, and anyone seeking to obey them according to the letter are Pharisees.

They think they have the law of the Spirit without the letter: being spiritual within while remaining bodily corrupt.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3)

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.(2 Cor 7)

Again, I’m not sure I can lump those who classify themselves as exempt from Gods commands as having any particular motive or character beyond the obvious which is that His teaching is sometimes in direct opposite to our desires. Anyone can see why a person doesn’t want to deny themselves what they desire, I don’t need to explain that one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ich spreche kein Deutsch, ...although my biological dad was German, I never knew him.
You know about God and His ways, but do you know Him experientially?

Those two are tied together in the strongest possible binding. There is no understanding his ways without intimacy with Him on deeper levels. That, in turn, requires keeping Jesus’ teaching. “He who keeps my teaching the Father will love. And we will come to him and make our dwelling in him.” His ways are past finding out (on your own), but they are not too high for Him to explain.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I find conditional promises in the Mosaic Covenant, is that your relationship to God?

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.”

“If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” [John 14:23 KJV]

There are more. Some promise unpleasant responses from God like “if you do not forgive you won’t be forgiven.” Or “if you do not repent I will…”.(very unpleasant experience.)

 

[rthom7]

Thank you for your reply, rthom7 but respectfully, I must disagree.
To become saved, I believe, is solely dependent upon whether God has chosen a particular person for it and not based upon anything else. Acquiring it is far, far beyond our ability to purchase it by leveraging anything that we may consider valid spiritual tender, even to include those things you mentioned: it is by God's good pleasure and nothing else.

The crux of 18:27 when applied to the gospel, is that those who have been saved know that Christ has removed them from under the curse of law. Therefore, anyone claiming to be a Christian and yet trying to coerce his Christain
brother into being under law (as the wicked servant did), means they have not become saved themselves, remain under law, and are thereby subject to God's judgement. Not being subject to the law's judgement through Christ, is the gospel's centerpiece: without law, there can be no sin.

Regarding the gift of salvation, once given to someone, it is immutable because it is by Christ as Saviour, not of ourselves; that is, since we didn't earn it, neither can we cause it to be lost

You mention many times rogerg

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (KJV)

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

These verses dispel any notion, God choses a particular person, all can be saved, but few choose to be saved. However God does know all things, about the future.

And as for the idea that once saved always saved?

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Mt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


And this is a condition of salvation

Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(KJV)

The word behind believed is amanuah, the function of faith in Jesus, it is something we do daily with Jesus, in order to maintain His powers of salvation flowing in us.

As James said is true

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

If you are in Jesus, your faith is alive, not dead, and the gift of salvation is alive, not dead, the power to save if whether you continue to support the gift of salvation. SHalom

 

[D-D-W]

So apple seeds can bring forth peaches?

Bad example. Apple seeds can bring forth anything BUT the type of apple they came from. It is a natural hybrid plant that has many different types of fruit trees in its mix. So yeah - it is possible that apple seeds will bring forth some type of peach or pear.

 

[crossnote]

Those two are tied together in the strongest possible binding. There is no understanding his ways without intimacy with Him on deeper levels. That, in turn, requires keeping Jesus’ teaching. “He who keeps my teaching the Father will love. And we will come to him and make our dwelling in him.” His ways are past finding out (on your own), but they are not too high for Him to explain.

Yes they are linked and Paul explains the link in his epistles.

 

[rogerg]

These verses dispel any notion, God choses a particular person, all can be saved, but few choose to be saved. However God does know all things, about the future.

Have to disagree.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Jhn 6:37-38 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Col 2:13-14 KJV]

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

And this is a condition of salvation

Ro 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

But the question really is: who will believe and why? The answer: only those whom the Father has chosen, because the Father has chosen them.

As James said is true

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The "man" in the verse is a symbol of Christ, and is not just an arbitrary man. The verse would have no meaning if that were the case. Christ is telling us that should we choose to claim faith and works as something we've derived then
it would have to be the equal of Christ's faith and works - which we know that no man could ever achieve. Neither is its intent to tell us that we should perform good works as something following after or from faith (although we should but that's a different discussion). It is informing that both Christ's works (which were the center) of His faith, and His faithfulness, brought salvation which only He alone could achieve. It is further informing that the faith of those saved is a gift from Christ unto them because that faith also, has at its center, His works reckoned to us. In the following verse we are informed that works are the very center of, and give life to faith, just as the spirit is the center of life of the body. However, only Christ's works were sufficient to achieve and to demonstrate true faith and a faith acceptable to the Father. Otherwise, we would be left with a dead faith, and a dead faith cannot bring salvation.

[Jas 2:26 KJV] 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, my point in all this? As with all of my posts, it is that Jesus Christ is Lord, Saviour, and God and only He alone can save, and save to the uttermost

 

[crossnote]

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.”

“If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” [John 14:23 KJV]

How many commands must one keep until you are saved?
Rather…(notice the past tense),

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV
[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Titus 3:5 KJV
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Ephesians 2:5 KJV
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

So I am already saved, not due to any righteousness of my own, but due to the complete and sufficient redemption Jesus secured for me. Work and argue all you want but peace with God wont come that way.

Romans 5:1 ESV
[1] Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How many commands must one keep until you are saved?
Rather…(notice the past tense),

2 Timothy 1:9 KJV
[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Titus 3:5 KJV
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Ephesians 2:5 KJV
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

So I am already saved, not due to any righteousness of my own, but due to the complete and sufficient redemption Jesus secured for me. Work and argue all you want but peace with God wont come that way.

Romans 5:1 ESV
[1] Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If all you are interested in is you going to Heaven, those scriptures won’t make any sense.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes they are linked and Paul explains the link in his epistles.

I’m pretty sure he doesn’t, but I’m game….where?

 

[GodsGrace]

This is an interesting way of putting it, but not accurate.

It's very accurate RB
Justification is a legal term, as I'm sure you know.
God DECLARES a person to be in right standing with Him, righteous.
It happens when a person becomes spiritually born again.

Sanctification lasts for the person's life. The person grows in his faith and in sanctification.
He is more and more set-apart from the world and looks to God for understanding.
Sanctification includes our behavior,,,we are to do what Jesus taught.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

We are sanctified within by the Spirit first with the purifying of the heart, that we may be indeed sanctified in the flesh with works of His righteousness.

It is when the inner sanctification becomes outer sanctification that we become justified by Christ: Abraham was not justified with God, until after he had offered up Isaac.

I agree that we can say we must begin our walk with God in our heart.
God said He would give us a new heart,,,Ezekiel 36:26

But you do have justification and sanctification mixed up.
You don't clean yourself up and then go to God...
You go to God and He empowers you to clean yourself up.

Abraham was justified by God when he left Ur.
He obeyed God and was justified.

Genesis 15:6, your verse, states that Abram believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
(about being the father of many nations).

I proffer that Abram also believed God when he trusted God enough to take his entire family and move from Ur.

Until inward sanctification becomes outward, the inward sanctification is not yet complete: so long as we are still sinning with the flesh, the heart is not yet purified, and no amount of good works, along with sinning, justifies us with God.

No, this is imputed righteousness with desire to do His righteousness and please Him in the flesh. Justification by Christ is not until we are doing so bodily:

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Gal 2)

We seek God by faith, we seek to be justified by God by works of faith, which do not include sinning.

Ok. I agree and will ignore the words justify, justification, etc.
Please post book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

True. We are commanded unto good works, but we first stop the sinning. Any man can do good by his neighbor, but that does not make him a justified son of God.

A man who does good by his neighbor and believes in God..is a son of God.

Though man no doubt appreciates good works done for them, no works are any good with God, if we are still sinning elsewhere: salvation is not becoming good sinners doing more good than evil.

If any man is sinning, he is of the devil and not born of God, and all past righteousness for good is forgotten by God.

Are you saying that born again believers do not sin?

Why? Because we have forgotten God, if we are sinning for the devil.
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves. (Judges 3)
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1)
God is the God of now and today only, not yesterday, nor tomorrow that may not come.
No we are not saved by our own personal faith: our personal faith is not the law of Christ.
This is a grievous error of many Christians: equating their personal faith as the faith of God, as though whatsoever they believe is truth of God: we can believe whatwe want, but if it is not Scripture of truth, then it is not necessarily true and of God.
The only faith that saves us is the faith of Jesus: which is receiving the faith He had as man on earth, to believe and obey the Father in all things according to the scriptures.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2)

What version are you using? This is NOT what Galatians 2 says. It must be the KJV...it's outdated.

Galatians 2:15-17 NASB
15“We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 2:15-17 NLT
15“You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. 16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law.

Look up the above scripture in any version other than the KJV.
Or you have to translate the KJV into understandable English.

one of two

 

[GodsGrace]

2 of 2
RBDERRICK

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev 14)
The faith of Jesus is the law of Christ written in Scripture: our personal faith is our conscience, which we ought not to defile within the law of Christ.
If our faith is contrary to Scripture, then our faith must change, as well as our lives by faith.
The Galatians were erring by their faith, in believing the liars that outward circumcision is necessary in Christ Jesus: our faith is our conscience only, not the faith and law of Christ as written in Scripture.
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name. (Rom 1)
We must live by our faith so as not to defile our conscience, whether it be weak or strong, but we must obey the faith of Jesus as written in Scripture, within whose law we have liberty to exercise our personal faith accordingly: once we begin to think we are to obey our own faith, then we begin to be a law unto ourselves by our own faith, and the faith and law of Christ in Scripture is no more obeyed by us as Christ and God.
Our faith is how we personally walk with Jesus within His law, but the faith of Jesus is the common faith of Scripture for the common salvation of Christ:
To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. (Titus 1)
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1)
Within the law of Christ we have liberty according to our faith, to eat and drink or not, but the faith of Jesus does not ever transgress His law.
2 Peter 1 teaches us not to think too highly of ourselves by our faith, by making our personal faith to be equal to Scripture and law of Christ: there are plenty of private interpretations of Scripture for a believer to follow in their own lives by personal faith, but only Scripture is the rule and law of Christ, that all believers must follow to be born and justrified of Christ.
If by personal faith I do not drink wine, I am not therefore justified in preaching drink not as the common faith of Jesus for all Christians to obey: I would then make myself a false teacher of the faith of the church, by preaching my own personal faith for that of Jesus and law of Christ.
If we have not recieved the faith of Jesus, we are not saved at all, nor are we under grace, but are delusionally saved by our own faith and our own imagination of grace: OSAS grace is filthy excuse for sinning.
(Not speaking of you personally, but of OSAS filthy believers.)
Believing in the Lord Jesus is receiving His faith, to no more trust in our own faith and conscience, but to trust in Jesus' faith written in Scripture.
By the faith of Jesus did the prophets and apostles write all Scripture:
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19)
That is the faith we not only must receive, but also obey.
Receiving Jesus is receiving His faith to trust in Scripture only, and not in our own faith, mind, and imagination of thought:
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim 3)
Our faith must conform to His faith found in Scripture, not His faith and Scripture conform to our own minds.
I don't know Pelagius, but every created spiritual being from Lucifer to Adam has power to think, intend, imagine and do accordingly.
Natural man uses this power to gain a corruptible crown, but saints in Christ Jesus have power for an incorruptible crown: the Holy Spirit is given only to them that obey Him, and not just to rule our minds for success in this life, but to have rule over all the heart and body to please God in spirit and flesh:
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)
Tiger Woods is famous for having perfect rule over his heart and mind to win golf tournaments, but not to win Christ.

So you believe Jesus has faith...
Don't you realize how silly that statement is.

Does God Father also have faith?

Do YOU have faith that you're a human being?
Is faith NECESSARY to Jesus or God or YOU believing that you're human?

One does not need FAITH if something is visible.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

If you can SEE something, you don't need FAITH...
Faith is believing in something you cannot see.

Have you heard of FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE? (charity in old English).
When you get to heaven, two will disappear and only one will remain.
Which one?