Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

So you believe Jesus has faith...

Not silly. Jesus speaking:

[Rev 2:13 KJV] 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

This one too:

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[rthom7]

Have to disagree.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Jhn 6:37-38 KJV] 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Col 2:13-14 KJV]

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

But the question really is: who will believe and why? The answer: only those whom the Father has chosen, because the Father has chosen them.


The "man" in the verse is a symbol of Christ, and is not just an arbitrary man. The verse would have no meaning if that were the case. Christ is telling us that should we choose to claim faith and works as something we've derived then
it would have to be the equal of Christ's faith and works - which we know that no man could ever achieve. Neither is its intent to tell us that we should perform good works as something following after or from faith (although we should but that's a different discussion). It is informing that both Christ's works (which were the center) of His faith, and His faithfulness, brought salvation which only He alone could achieve. It is further informing that the faith of those saved is a gift from Christ unto them because that faith also, has at its center, His works reckoned to us. In the following verse we are informed that works are the very center of, and give life to faith, just as the spirit is the center of life of the body. However, only Christ's works were sufficient to achieve and to demonstrate true faith and a faith acceptable to the Father. Otherwise, we would be left with a dead faith, and a dead faith cannot bring salvation.

[Jas 2:26 KJV] 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, my point in all this? As with all of my posts, it is that Jesus Christ is Lord, Saviour, and God and only He alone can save, and save to the uttermost

Well bro how can a human discern if the Father is wooing him to Jesus? I didn't know the Father took an active role in leading us to Jesus, I thought the Father speaks to us via the HS and the HS is the voice of our conscience that does the leading of us to Jesus. You are implying that the Father only selects those the Father wants to save, ignoring all the others because they are unworthy to be saved?

I notice you quote John, so will I >-

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Elohiym powers ( the Father and the HS) the Father gave us his one and only Son, that "whosoever"

That word "whosoever" implies all humans are invited and sought, doesn't it?

And the word "believeth" is amanuah, the condition of faith, the subject theme of this thread.

But this word "whosoever" calls all humans doesn't it?

Does Scripture say many are called by who are chosen.

In the wedding feast, the invitation went to all....

You are making a wrong claim over the Father's love....

 

[rogerg]

Well bro how can a human discern if the Father is wooing him to Jesus? I didn't know the Father took an active role in leading us to Jesus, I thought the Father speaks to us via the HS and the HS is the voice of our conscience that does the leading of us to Jesus. You are implying that the Father only selects those the Father wants to save, ignoring all the others because they are unworthy to be saved?

I notice you quote John, so will I >-

You don't have to know. All that really matters is that you have been. However, after saying that, I will add that
if someone comes to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ - that He and He alone is the Saviour in all ways, and we can play no part in our salvation to include our works and our faith -- in that case, it could have only come about because God had explicitly intervened in their spiritual life. All true attributes of a Christian come from being saved, but the doing of them are not a pathway to becoming saved. Most people -- the unsaved --don't like the realization that they are completely dependent upon Christ - they'd rather believe in themselves and that they can influence their salvation.

Your quotation of John is a fairly complex discussion in itself, so I'll defer for now, unless you insist

 

[GodsGrace]

Not under law - under grace. Those whom it was God's good pleasure to save through Christ, are no longer under the judgement of law. This doesn't mean those saved shouldn't do good works because they should, but those good works will come from salvation but not as a pathway to salvation.
There is a lot to this topic, so it is a little difficult to address it effectively in a few lines with a few verses. So, if I can
clarify further, let me know.

[Rom 6:14, 22-23 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ...
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.\

[Col 2:13-14 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Hi Roger,
Actually I had asked what you meant by THE LAW.
Doesn't matter.
We are definitely under grace and not laboring under the Law.
And I agree that we are to do good deeds/works while here on earth because this is what Jesus told us to do.

Romans 6:14, 22-23 which you posted speaks of no longer being slaves to sin but slaves for God.
This is in keeping with Romans 6:16 which states that we are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.
Our fruits are simply what we do for the Kingdom of God. And at the end of being His servants, we receive our reward...everlasting life.

Jesus won the victory on the cross.

 

[rogerg]

Our fruits are simply what we do for the Kingdom of God. And at the end of being His servants, we receive our reward...everlasting life.

Hi wondering,

I think I agree with what you've posted, I would just like to be clear with this - that at the time of our salvation
we are given eternal life.

[1Jo 5:11, 13 KJV]
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ...
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Jhn 11:26 KJV] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not silly. Jesus speaking:

[Rev 2:13 KJV] 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

This one too:

[Gal 2:20 KJV] 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Really Roger,
There's nothing to discuss here.

If you think Jesus needs faith, then so be it.
MY FAITH means our faith IN HIM.

Here's a question for you:
THOU HOLDEST FAST MY NAME, AND HAS NOT DENIED MY FAITH....

How could another person deny anyone's faith??
Could YOU deny that I have faith?

It's old english.
Get a modern version that speaks like we do.

 

[rogerg]

Actually I had asked what you meant by THE LAW.

Yes, it matters and I should have answered it - it is important- sorry about that.

The law that I was referring to is the law of sin and death:

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Everyone born into this world is born under the law of sin and death. As part of becoming saved, God
translates them from its control and places them instead under the law of the Spirit of live in Christ Jesus.

I say this because the verse tells us that it was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus itself that had made Paul free from the law of sin and death, and that Paul was only one of many of its beneficiary. It is/was all God's work - nothing that Paul did achieved it.

This means God will/can no longer levy any judgement against those who have been placed under Christ.

[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that it is God who gives the victory.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,

I think I agree with what you've posted, I would just like to be clear with this - that at the time of our salvation
we are given eternal life.

[1Jo 5:11, 13 KJV]
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. ...
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Jhn 11:26 KJV] 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We are given eternal life at the time of our salvation because at that time we believe and are born of the spirit.

For as long as we entrust our life to God, we will remain in His favor and we can be called a son of God.

Your very verses state this:
1 John 5:11 THE LIFE IS IN THE SON. If we abandon the Son, we abandon eternal life.
1 John 5:13 IF ONE BELIEVES IN THE SON, HE HAS ETERNAL LIFE.
1 John 11:26 WHILE WE ARE ALIVE AND BELIEVE WE WILL NEVER "DIE". (our soul and spirit).

Do we agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it matters and I should have answered it - it is important- sorry about that.

The law that I was referring to is the law of sin and death:

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Everyone born into this world is born under the law of sin and death. As part of becoming saved, God
translates them from its control and places them instead under the law of the Spirit of live in Christ Jesus.

I say this because the verse tells us that it was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus itself that had made Paul free from the law of sin and death, and that Paul was only one of many of its beneficiary. It is/was all God's work - nothing that Paul did achieved it.

This means God will/can no longer levy any judgement against those who have been placed under Christ.

[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that it is God who gives the victory.

OK
This goes back a little to the post I just sent you.

I agree with all you've posted.
God gives us the victory THROUGH Jesus Christ...It is Christ's power over sin and our love for Him that gives us the victory.

Let's just make sure that we are to be PLACED UNDER CHRIST in order to receive that victory.

 

[rogerg]

How could another person deny anyone's faith??
Could YOU deny that I have faith?

Disagree. We are not talking about you and me. We are talking about the Saviour and His role.
Jesus's faith is that which brought salvation to fruition on our behalf.
Those who deny His faithfulness and obedience are in effect saying that He isn't the Saviour.
Those who believe that He was faithful and obedient to the Father, are in effect saying that He is the Saviour.
The direct answer to your question is that His faith can be measured by His works.

 

[rogerg]

Do we agree?

Sorry, no. Can someone un-eternal what is eternal - as in eternal life?

 

[GodsGrace]

Disagree. We are not talking about you and me. We are talking about the Saviour and His role.
Jesus's faith is that which brought salvation to fruition on our behalf.
Those who deny His faithfulness and obedience are in effect saying that He isn't the Saviour.
Those who believe that He was faithful and obedient to the Father, are in effect saying that He is the Saviour.
The direct answer to your question is that His faith can be measured by His works.

Do you mean Jesus' faith in God Father?

If so, well of course Jesus had faith in God Father.
He is God.
He trusted God.
He had enough faith in the plan of God that He went to the cross.

It sounds like you're saying that Jesus had faith IN HIMSELF and this is what saves us.
What saves us is OUR faith IN HIM.
Our faith that He is the Son of God.
Our faith that He rose from the dead.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, no. Can someone un-eternal what is eternal - as in eternal life?

This is going to turn into OSAS?

We have eternal life if we are in Christ.
Every passage about eternal life is in the present tense.
Nowhere does it say that we are born again forever no matter what happens.

Just like we decided to accept God's grace, we can also decide to forfeit that grace.
Do you believe in free will?

 

[rogerg]

t sounds like you're saying that Jesus had faith IN HIMSELF and this is what saves us.

No, sorry I wasn't clear. Jesus was faithful and obedient to the
Father not to Himself in that He fully and perfectly satisfied the (and I hate to call it this but...) the task
He accepted from God the Father to bring salvation. Even though being God incarnate, Jesus divested Himself
while on earth from His powers as God and perfectly followed and accomplished
that which the Father directed/instructed Him to do. He was also a man, and, in that regard, He fully trusted in the Father that He would not leave His soul in Hell.

 

[rogerg]

Do you believe in free will?

No.
The verses I posted previously said we HAVE eternal life - it was already given through Christ.
If it is eternal, once given, it CANNOT be lost. We did nothing
to acquire it - so there is nothing that we can do that will lose it

 

[GodsGrace]

No, sorry I wasn't clear. Jesus was faithful and obedient to the
Father not to Himself in that He fully and perfectly satisfied the (and I hate to call it this but...) the task
He accepted from God the Father to bring salvation. Even though being God incarnate, Jesus divested Himself
while on earth from His powers as God and perfectly followed and accomplished
that which the Father directed/instructed Him to do. He was also a man, and, in that regard, He fully trusted in the Father that He would not leave His soul in Hell.

Roger,
Yes. I do believe we agree.
And Jesus did have a task, no reason to hate to say it.
He had the task of being the savior,
He had the task of teaching us how to please God,
He had the task of healing and exorcism...

Actually, each person of the Trinity had their very own task or work or job to do.

 

[rogerg]

Actually, each person of the Trinity had their very own task or work or job to do.

Interesting discussion but I have to leave now. If you post further, I reply later - maybe tomorrow

 

[GodsGrace]

No.
The verses I posted previously said we HAVE eternal life - it was already given through Christ.
If it is eternal, once given, it CANNOT be lost. We did nothing
to acquire it - so there is nothing that we can do that will lose it

I hear this a lot.
But doesn't our eternal life begin when we die?
John 6:50...
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ...

If a person stops "feeding on Jesus' flesh" is he still saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

Interesting discussion but I have to leave now. If you post further, I reply later - maybe tomorrow

Same here. It's almost 1 am.
to be cont'd.

 

[crossnote]

No, sorry I wasn't clear. Jesus was faithful and obedient to the
Father not to Himself in that He fully and perfectly satisfied the (and I hate to call it this but...) the task
He accepted from God the Father to bring salvation. Even though being God incarnate, Jesus divested Himself
while on earth from His powers as God and perfectly followed and accomplished
that which the Father directed/instructed Him to do. He was also a man, and, in that regard, He fully trusted in the Father that He would not leave His soul in Hell.

Yes, so many like to equate faith with obedience..except, when it comes to Jesus' perfect obedience (thus perfect faith).