Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[jerry63935]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

works follows salvation Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. i have no issue with works unless they are used in teaching to be saved

 

[Hopeful]

I agree, we are the soil.

9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning,

Your version of the bible accommodates sin.
The word "practice" is not in the KJV.

for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

That version of the bible would have us believe that apple trees cannot "make a practice" of bringing forth onions.
Apple trees cannot "EVER" bring forth onions because of the apple seed it sprang forth from at its beginning.
Same goes for those born of God's seed.

I think they are the same. The seed is still the Word of God which is, btw, a metaphor.

It is only a metaphor in Matt/Luke, not 1 John 3.

This verse addresses willful known sin that a person who has the HS in them doesn’t do.

All sins are willful, as they all require a temptation to be classified a sin. (James 1:14-15)

Not that they are sinless but because as one walks with Him, the nearness to Him is directly related to the degree of holiness one actually practices. This is how John makes that claim. Those who have Him with them and in them (born from above which is also a metaphor) do not continually and freely choose to do wrong to others (sin.) This is where the love for your brother comes in.

They don't ever bring forth the fruit of alien seed.

The soil is us but soil is never generated from a seed. “For God’s seed abides in him” excludes the idea that the seed generates him. The words cannot mean that.

You are again blending Matt and Luke with 1 John 3.
In Matt/Luke the soil is us and the seed is the word of God.
In 1 John 3, the seed (God's own seed) is what has regenerated us, and our fruit/deeds proves it.
Unholy fruit--foreign father/seed.
Two entirely different usages of the word "seed".

 

[Hopeful]

Bad example. Apple seeds can bring forth anything BUT the type of apple they came from.

Apple seeds can only bring forth apples.
Why do so many insist that God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil?

It is a natural hybrid plant that has many different types of fruit trees in its mix. So yeah - it is possible that apple seeds will bring forth some type of peach or pear.

Smoke and mirrors...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your version of the bible accommodates sin.
The word "practice" is not in the KJV.

I gave you a quote from a translation, You have a problem in the fact that the same John wrote, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

That version of the bible would have us believe that apple trees cannot "make a practice" of bringing forth onions.
Apple trees cannot "EVER" bring forth onions because of the apple seed it sprang forth from at its beginning.
Same goes for those born of God's seed.

No, your analogy doesn’t work. The seed is always the Word of God. The seed brings forth fruit. Jesus even talked about judging another person by their fruit hence, so different fruits are possible. The soil doesn’t bring forth fruit though per se, the seed does.

It is only a metaphor in Matt/Luke, not 1 John 3.

All sins are willful, as they all require a temptation to be classified a sin. (James 1:14-15)

Incorrect. The Bible speaks of sins that happen due to ignorance. There are sins people do that they don’t know is sin.

They don't ever bring forth the fruit of alien seed.

You are again blending Matt and Luke with 1 John 3.
In Matt/Luke the soil is us and the seed is the word of God.
In 1 John 3, the seed (God's own seed) is what has regenerated us, and our fruit/deeds proves it.

Yes, the seed is God’s word.

Unholy fruit--foreign father/seed.
Two entirely different usages of the word "seed".

I don’t see that. Can you please quote the verse you think of as discussing a different or bad seed?

 

[Hopeful]

I gave you a quote from a translation, You have a problem in the fact that the same John wrote, “if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

I have no problem with 1 John 1:8, although it is irrelevant to the conversation.
That verse is addressed to the folks who walk in darkness, as are verses 6 and 10.

No, your analogy doesn’t work. The seed is always the Word of God. The seed brings forth fruit. Jesus even talked about judging another person by their fruit hence, so different fruits are possible. The soil doesn’t bring forth fruit though per se, the seed does.

Your POV is then, that the seed of God can bring forth devilish fruit.
I can't agree.

Incorrect. The Bible speaks of sins that happen due to ignorance. There are sins people do that they don’t know is sin.

Not on the NT.

Yes, the seed is God’s word.

Does God's seed bring forth liars or murderers?
No, it cannot...ever.

I don’t see that. Can you please quote the verse you think of as discussing a different or bad seed?

Sure.
Bad seed...
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
Versus:
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

Only some the verses in discussion call God's seed the "word of God". (Matt & Luke...parable of the sower)
In 1 John 3, the seed is what we have been gendered by.
It is God's seed.
And like an apple's seed, it can only bring forth after itself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have no problem with 1 John 1:8, although it is irrelevant to the conversation.
That verse is addressed to the folks who walk in darkness, as are verses 6 and 10.

John doesn’t say he is speaking of people he’s not writing to. He then goes on to say that if we confess our sin God forgives which means he is not speaking to those who walk in darkness. What you have to do is arbitrarily decide verses you don’t like are relegated to be speaking to someone else.

Your POV is then, that the seed of God can bring forth devilish fruit.
I can't agree.

But I don’t say that.

Not on the NT.

Does God's seed bring forth liars or murderers?
No, it cannot...ever.

Jesus talked about how the seed (Word) did bring forth the fruit. There are weeds, lack of depth, birds who eat the seed, as examples of how the seed is prevented from bearing the fruit.

Sure.
Bad seed...
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
Versus:
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

Only some the verses in discussion call God's seed the "word of God". (Matt & Luke...parable of the sower)
In 1 John 3, the seed is what we have been gendered by.
It is God's seed.
And like an apple's seed, it can only bring forth after itself.

I think I’m not going to
convince you the seed is always the Word of and does not produce nor generate people. I suspect this is because your theology NEEDS the attributes of the seed to be applied to
you.

By the way, if you plant seeds, they don’t all germinate and bring forth a plant or fruit. As Jesus described, there are reasons why seeds don’t result in fruit.

So I don’t see in scripture or real life that we suddenly or even slowly become sinless. We can become more obedient with all that brings including fruit. But exactly like Jesus in every way (sinless) is beyond us or at least most of us.

And anyone who achieves that level has long ago ceased to talk about themselves. Jesus was sinless and never boasted to a single person how sin free he was.

 

[GodsGrace]

works follows salvation Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. i have no issue with works unless they are used in teaching to be saved

How simple and beautiful is the truth .

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree with you that it is an error he puts forth.

Really wrong doctrine they uphold...but it does accommodate more sinning.

The devil is crafty.

The devils "believe", and tremble. (paraphrase)

They may have missed the scripture saying the Law was made for sinners..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Tim 1:9)

Just accommodation for sin...

It is a new body, and a new creature.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"All things are become new".

I don't know about that "hastens" business.

Yep, the new creature has a divine nature now.

Baptized into Christ, and into His death and burial, and then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

Keep working on how to answer their doctrine with concise scriptural backing.
Make a log book with the scriptures that refer to your replies to their tenets/questions/points.
Then move on to the next "doctrine".

Good point about the law still be written for sinners.

I agree with you that it is an error he puts forth.

Really wrong doctrine they uphold...but it does accommodate more sinning.

The devil is crafty.

The devils "believe", and tremble. (paraphrase)

They may have missed the scripture saying the Law was made for sinners..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Tim 1:9)

Just accommodation for sin...

It is a new body, and a new creature.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"All things are become new".

I don't know about that "hastens" business.

Yep, the new creature has a divine nature now.

Baptized into Christ, and into His death and burial, and then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

Keep working on how to answer their doctrine with concise scriptural backing.
Make a log book with the scriptures that refer to your replies to their tenets/questions/points.
Then move on to the next "doctrine".

Good point about the law still being made for sinners.

They first justify themselves as being righteous by faith alone, so they then say the law is no longer for them, while doing the sins that the law is made to condemn.

I do keep record of everything posted, as well as asking them in detail exactly what they are trying to say.

The good thing about it, is that seeing how people err with the Scriptures and refuting it, instructs us more perfectly in the truth of Scripture.

I have never learned so much of the truth, by looking at such much corruption of it.

For almost every verse of Scripture, the devil has a lie made just to deny it.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I can't agree with this.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)

We obey the first great commandment first, that we may obey the second righteously.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Is 55)

Jesus calls purifying our hearts of lust for sin and unrighteous imagination, the first works of our first love for God:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev 2)

Being under the law are those obeying the law outwardly only, but when we receive Him and His power within to purify ourselves of a filthy spirit, we also lawfully do His righteousness bodily to purify ourselves of filthy living:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

Outward sinning is only the obvious symptom of inward corruption, whose heart is not yet purified by Christ: we purify the inward first, that the symptoms disappear.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

We purify the roots, and the dead works become instantly dead fruit fallen away from the new good tree:

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

When the Lord comes within the heart to purify all, then the old rotten figs are out of time: they must fall away as by the mighty working of the might God, Christ Jesus.

Sanctification of both happens simultaneously.

True.

Once we are purifying within, we are purifying without. The Scripture speaks of purifying within first, that we may be outwardly clean also: not that we may then be clean outwardly at some time in the future.

There is no temporal difference between believing and obeying God, nor obeying Him inwardly and outwardly.

Only the carnal minded say there is a temporal difference, because they are blind to the spiritual works within first, and define works as only outward in the flesh.

We can't be clean on the "inside" and "dirty-sinful" on the outside at the same time..

True. We cannot be sinning with the flesh and be spiritually pure within, and so no man can be committing sin of the devil, and be born of God at the same time.

The whole debate on what is 'committing' or 'commitment' to sin, is nothing but a self-justifying sideshow, like questioning what is, is.

The answer is obvious: He that is born of God is not sinning, neither can he be sinning and be born of God at the same time.

If we are sinning, His seed, Jesus Christ, does not remain in us.

The one sinning must repent, believe the gospel of the cross, and receive Jesus Christ with power not to be sinning, within the heart first, and also with the flesh.

Whether someone has done so in the past no more matters, because it is no more remembered by God, and neither does tomorrow matter, which may never come:

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (MAtthew 25)

By the power of Christ living within, His righteous saints become masters of living for God here and now, even as He did with the Father all the days of His flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

John doesn’t say he is speaking of people he’s not writing to.

He is writing TO the church, ABOUT folks who walk in the light and other folks who walk in darkness.

He then goes on to say that if we confess our sin God forgives which means he is not speaking to those who walk in darkness.

Correct, as verse 9 is the initial step to walk in the light, (God), of verse 7.

What you have to do is arbitrarily decide verses you don’t like are relegated to be speaking to someone else.

We can't walk in both light and darkness at the same time, can we?
Choose which you will remain in.

But I don’t say that.

Do you believe those born of God can commit A sin?
I don't.

Jesus talked about how the seed (Word) did bring forth the fruit. There are weeds, lack of depth, birds who eat the seed, as examples of how the seed is prevented from bearing the fruit.

Those who have had the word stolen away or crowded out will not be considered as "born of God" later when John writes 1 John 3:9-10
They are the children of the devil.

I think I’m not going to convince you the seed is always the Word of and does not produce nor generate people.

I am surprised you think it is only one thing because of its use in one parable.
But you cannot see it as something else in another teaching.
How about serpents?
Ca there be more than one use for an analogy concerning serpents?
(Yes, there can be)

I suspect this is because your theology NEEDS the attributes of the seed to be applied to
you.

If they don't "apply to us", we are in a world of trouble.
Can the reborn behave like they are not reborn?
No.

By the way, if you plant seeds, they don’t all germinate and bring forth a plant or fruit.

True, (and subject to the Matt and Luke parables).

As Jesus described, there are reasons why seeds don’t result in fruit.

Agreed.
Does He imply that the seed/word of God will ever bear devilish fruit?
No.

So I don’t see in scripture or real life that we suddenly or even slowly become sinless. We can become more obedient with all that brings including fruit. But exactly like Jesus in every way (sinless) is beyond us or at least most of us.

Too bad.
As Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

And anyone who achieves that level has long ago ceased to talk about themselves. Jesus was sinless and never boasted to a single person how sin free he was.

How would you know that if you had never met one of us before?
Jesus said He and the Father were one !
I hope you don't have a problem with Him too.

 

[Hopeful]

hou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23)
We obey the first great commandment first, that we may obey the second righteously.

You gotta' remember Jesus was talking to men who existed before the sanctifying blood of Christ was offered.
Let me ask you this...When the alter and its instruments were sanctified every year with the blood of bulls and goats, did the entire "spoon" or "dish" get sanctified or just the outside of them?
When the sanctifying, justifying blood of the perfect sacrifice is applied to us, there remains no unsanctified portion that will eventually get cleaned up and made holy.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Is 55)
Jesus calls purifying our hearts of lust for sin and unrighteous imagination, the first works of our first love for God:

If you want to itemize one episode of one's life with incremental steps, go ahead.
Remember again that Jesus isn't talking to those converting to Christianity, but Jews of the OT...as was Isaiah.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev 2)

Being under the law are those obeying the law outwardly only,

Agreed, "only".

but when we receive Him and His power within to purify ourselves of a filthy spirit, we also lawfully do His righteousness bodily to purify ourselves of filthy living:

If we are doing righteousness, we are already pure.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)
Outward sinning is only the obvious symptom of inward corruption, whose heart is not yet purified by Christ: we purify the inward first, that the symptoms disappear.
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
We purify the roots, and the dead works become instantly dead fruit fallen away from the new good tree:

God is the "root" of that parable, and He needs no purifying.
You describe rebirth.
Out with the old and in with the new.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Co 5:17)
Not gradually/incrementally either.

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
When the Lord comes within the heart to purify all, then the old rotten figs are out of time: they must fall away as by the mighty working of the might God, Christ Jesus.

When the Lord comes into the heart, the man turns from sin permanently and is water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his past sins.
Clean, inside and out.
Fit, to be the residence of the Holy Ghost, who will reside in him.

True.
Once we are purifying within, we are purifying without. The Scripture speaks of purifying within first, that we may be outwardly clean also: not that we may then be clean outwardly at some time in the future.

"purifying"?
Your incrementalization of events troubles me.
It all happens in an instant, not over the course of days or months.

There is no temporal difference between believing and obeying God, nor obeying Him inwardly and outwardly.

Then quit incrementalizing it.

Only the carnal minded say there is a temporal difference, because they are blind to the spiritual works within first, and define works as only outward in the flesh.

New topic?

True. We cannot be sinning with the flesh and be spiritually pure within, and so no man can be committing sin of the devil, and be born of God at the same time.
The whole debate on what is 'committing' or 'commitment' to sin, is nothing but a self-justifying sideshow, like questioning what is, is.
The answer is obvious: He that is born of God is not sinning, neither can he be sinning and be born of God at the same time.
If we are sinning, His seed, Jesus Christ, does not remain in us.
The one sinning must repent, believe the gospel of the cross, and receive Jesus Christ with power not to be sinning, within the heart first, and also with the flesh.

Why not both at once?

Whether someone has done so in the past no more matters, because it is no more remembered by God, and neither does tomorrow matter, which may never come:
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (MAtthew 25)

By the power of Christ living within, His righteous saints become masters of living for God here and now, even as He did with the Father all the days of His flesh.

Agreed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He is writing TO the church, ABOUT folks who walk in the light and other folks who walk in darkness.

Correct, as verse 9 is the initial step to walk in the light, (God), of verse 7.

We can't walk in both light and darkness at the same time, can we?
Choose which you will remain in.

Do you believe those born of God can commit A sin?
I don't.

Those who have had the word stolen away or crowded out will not be considered as "born of God" later when John writes 1 John 3:9-10
They are the children of the devil.

I am surprised you think it is only one thing because of its use in one parable.
But you cannot see it as something else in another teaching.
How about serpents?
Ca there be more than one use for an analogy concerning serpents?
(Yes, there can be)

If they don't "apply to us", we are in a world of trouble.
Can the reborn behave like they are not reborn?
No.

True, (and subject to the Matt and Luke parables).

Agreed.
Does He imply that the seed/word of God will ever bear devilish fruit?
No.

Too bad.
As Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

How would you know that if you had never met one of us before?
Jesus said He and the Father were one !
I hope you don't have a problem with Him too.

I am at somewhat of a loss as to how to respond. We have interacted quite well and I have grown fond of you and so do not want to spoil that interaction.

I have encountered others who held this theology that you espouse. In the end, I have found the focus on their own sinlessness did not produce humble people who reminded one of Jesus. Jesus, who we all admit was sinless, NEVER talked about his own sinlessness. He did not talk about how great he was or use Scripture to tell others that they could be as great as he was. He promised that they would do greater deeds in terms of helping others, but not that they would be greater. And this is the problem most people have with the theology that insists the adherents tell others that they are sinless and how others can be sinless too (regardless of how they actually behave it seems.)

Let us look at how Jesus dealt with others and his own sinlessness. The single statement he had regarding his own sinlessness was to ask those who knew him this, "which one of you can accuse me of sin?" Do you see what he said. He did not say he was sinless. He asked those who knew him to tell him what sin he had committed in the whole of his lifetime.

That is what I ask you. Do those who work with you and live with you say that you are sinless?

The works we do, that is the choices we make, are best evaluated by other people who are unbiased and have a fondness, at least, for truth. We are the last ones to judge, on the whole, whether our works are reflective of Jesus.

 

[rthom7]

You don't have to know. All that really matters is that you have been. However, after saying that, I will add that
if someone comes to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ - that He and He alone is the Saviour in all ways, and we can play no part in our salvation to include our works and our faith -- in that case, it could have only come about because God had explicitly intervened in their spiritual life. All true attributes of a Christian come from being saved, but the doing of them are not a pathway to becoming saved. Most people -- the unsaved --don't like the realization that they are completely dependent upon Christ - they'd rather believe in themselves and that they can influence their salvation.

Your quotation of John is a fairly complex discussion in itself, so I'll defer for now, unless you insist

You said "
I will add that if someone comes to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ "

What does this mean? How can you come to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ?

Are we on the same page regarding what Faith is and how you get Faith?

 

[rogerg]

I will add that if someone comes to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ "

What does this mean? How can you come to a full and complete faith/trust in Christ?

Are we on the same page regarding what Faith is and how you get Faith?

A full and complete faith in Christ is a gift given only by God.
I believe salvation was brought to fruition by Christ's faithfulness, obedience and His offering to satisfy the Father's will: we are not saved by our faith but of His. From that, and manifested in the fruit of the Spirit, is a true and abiding faith in Christ as a gift unto those saved. A full and complete faith in Christ is demonstrated in a knowledge of/trust in Christ as the Saviour -- that He has already perfectly accomplished everything needed for salvation so our trust is in Him not ourselves; that is, there is nothing whatsoever any of us can do to bring about (our) salvation -- we are fully and completely dependent upon the mercy of God for it - some He gives it to, some not. Those who receive it, were those chosen by God before the foundation of the world for salvation, and their names written into the book of life. By that, and at some point in their lives, they are saved by God and a faith and an understanding of Christ and His gospel begins and grows.
Obviously, this isn't a full explanation to your question, and I'm not too happy with the way I wrote it (sorry about that - hope its not too confusing), but I tried to at least touch on some of the major points as I understand them.

 

[Hopeful]

I am at somewhat of a loss as to how to respond. We have interacted quite well and I have grown fond of you and so do not want to spoil that interaction.

I am glad of that.

I have encountered others who held this theology that you espouse. In the end, I have found the focus on their own sinlessness did not produce humble people who reminded one of Jesus. Jesus, who we all admit was sinless, NEVER talked about his own sinlessness. He did not talk about how great he was or use Scripture to tell others that they could be as great as he was. He promised that they would do greater deeds in terms of helping others, but not that they would be greater. And this is the problem most people have with the theology that insists the adherents tell others that they are sinless and how others can be sinless too (regardless of how they actually behave it seems.)

Being obedient to God doesn't make one "great".
It makes one loving and tolerant, helpful and merciful, kind and patient.
It also makes one eager to spread a message of the same qualities Jesus demonstrated here on earth.

Let us look at how Jesus dealt with others and his own sinlessness. The single statement he had regarding his own sinlessness was to ask those who knew him this, "which one of you can accuse me of sin?" Do you see what he said. He did not say he was sinless. He asked those who knew him to tell him what sin he had committed in the whole of his lifetime.

I went back nearly 100 posts, (post 439), to find this..."My repentance from sin was real."
Is that the proclamation of sinlessness you refer to?
Here is another something Jesus said..."The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:24-15)
Jesus said we can be like Him.

That is what I ask you. Do those who work with you and live with you say that you are sinless?

I don't know what they would say about me, except that they can't say I have sinned against them.

The works we do, that is the choices we make, are best evaluated by other people who are unbiased and have a fondness, at least, for truth. We are the last ones to judge, on the whole, whether our works are reflective of Jesus.

If we can't judge ourselves, how can we judge what others say about us?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am glad of that.

Being obedient to God doesn't make one "great".
It makes one loving and tolerant, helpful and merciful, kind and patient.
It also makes one eager to spread a message of the same qualities Jesus demonstrated here on earth.

Until one starts telling others that they have achieved sinlessness. Jesus himself NEVER said that of himself, although true. He says he is meek and humble. Taking about yourself is NOT the message of Jesus.

I went back nearly 100 posts, (post 439), to find this..."My repentance from sin was real."
Is that the proclamation of sinlessness you refer to?

Are you free of all sin, yes or no?

Here is another something Jesus said..."The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:24-15)
Jesus said we can be like Him.

No doubt. Are you? How do you measure this?

I don't know what they would say about me, except that they can't say I have sinned against them.

Have you asked them? Have you sinned against anyone else?

If we can't judge ourselves, how can we judge what others say about us?

Our judgement of ourselves can be biased in the extreme. Others have often no interest in seeing us as greater than we are.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A full and complete faith in Christ is a gift given only by God.
I believe salvation was brought to fruition by Christ's faithfulness, obedience and His offering to satisfy the Father's will: we are not saved by our faith but of His. From that, and manifested in the fruit of the Spirit, is a true and abiding faith in Christ as a gift unto those saved. A full and complete faith in Christ is demonstrated in a knowledge of/trust in Christ as the Saviour -- that He has already perfectly accomplished everything needed for salvation so our trust is in Him not ourselves; that is, there is nothing whatsoever any of us can do to bring about (our) salvation -- we are fully and completely dependent upon the mercy of God for it - some He gives it to, some not. Those who receive it, were those chosen by God before the foundation of the world for salvation, and their names written into the book of life. By that, and at some point in their lives, they are saved by God and a faith and an understanding of Christ and His gospel begins and grows.
Obviously, this isn't a full explanation to your question, and I'm not too happy with the way I wrote it (sorry about that - hope its not too confusing), but I tried to at least touch on some of the major points as I understand them.

If having a full and complete faith is God’s responsibility (given only by God according to you), then why don’t the disciples tell that to Jesus when he chides them for insufficient faith? Why didn’t they respond, “Jesus, tell the Father to give us full and sufficient faith!! It’s not our fault!”

 

[rogerg]

f having a full and complete faith is God’s responsibility (given only by God according to you), then why don’t the disciples tell that to Jesus when he chides them for insufficient faith? Why didn’t they respond, “Jesus, tell the Father to give us full and sufficient faith!! It’s not our fault!”

(You didn't state the verse you had in mind so I'm not sure exactly how to address your question)

But, in no particular order:

1) Jesus was probably still in the flesh at that time. His promise of the Comforter - the Holy Spirit- He who was to indwell them (and all of the saved) giving unto them faith-- would occur after His return to the Father not then. Faith is a fruit of the Spirt.
2) An understanding of the gospel increases over one's lifetime and is from a spiritual renewal of the mind by the Holy Spirt. With, and by that, faith increases too. But it does not come about all at once
3) However, a faith in Christ as Saviour, is realized at salvation.
4) Those saved eventually learn that every spiritual blessing emanates from the gift of salvation, including faith; they know that as the core, that their spiritual wisdom is from salvation, not to salvation - a very big difference between the two perspectives indeed- as big as can be.

It is God's work, not ours. Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.

[Eph 4:20, 23 KJV]
20 But ye have not so learned Christ; ...
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Jhn 16:7 KJV] 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(You didn't state the verse you had in mind so I'm not sure exactly how to address your question)

But, in no particular order:

1) Jesus was probably still in the flesh at that time. His promise of the Comforter - the Holy Spirit- He who was to indwell them (and all of the saved) giving unto them faith-- would occur after His return to the Father not then. Faith is a fruit of the Spirt.
2) An understanding of the gospel increases over one's lifetime and is from a spiritual renewal of the mind by the Holy Spirt. With, and by that, faith increases too. But it does not come about all at once
3) However, a faith in Christ as Saviour, is realized at salvation.
4) Those saved eventually learn that every spiritual blessing emanates from the gift of salvation, including faith; they know that as the core, that their spiritual wisdom is from salvation, not to salvation - a very big difference between the two perspectives indeed- as big as can be.

It is God's work, not ours. Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.

[Eph 4:20, 23 KJV]
20 But ye have not so learned Christ; ...
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Jhn 16:7 KJV] 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

I didn’t use a verse since there isn’t one that states your position. Do you mean where Jesus chided them for their lack of faith?

You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? Matt 16:8

.. He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. ... Matt 8:26

Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" Matt 14:31

He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, Matt 17:20

and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you- you of little faith?

“is it not plain that in your hearts you have little faith, seeing that you have become”

“Do you still have no faith?” Mark 4:40

And finally “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith ...have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith” whereby Jesus did NOT tell anyone that God had given that Roman great faith but praises the man.

The FRUIT of the Holy Spirt verses are written after Oentecist and those character qualities are FRUIT not gifts, according to the Bible. Those fruits or lack thereof, are how we can judge the state of another man’s heart.

 

[RBDERRICK]

He is writing TO the church, ABOUT folks who walk in the light and other folks who walk in darkness.

Correct, as verse 9 is the initial step to walk in the light, (God), of verse 7.

We can't walk in both light and darkness at the same time, can we?
Choose which you will remain in.

Do you believe those born of God can commit A sin?
I don't.

Those who have had the word stolen away or crowded out will not be considered as "born of God" later when John writes 1 John 3:9-10
They are the children of the devil.

I am surprised you think it is only one thing because of its use in one parable.
But you cannot see it as something else in another teaching.
How about serpents?
Ca there be more than one use for an analogy concerning serpents?
(Yes, there can be)

If they don't "apply to us", we are in a world of trouble.
Can the reborn behave like they are not reborn?
No.

True, (and subject to the Matt and Luke parables).

Agreed.
Does He imply that the seed/word of God will ever bear devilish fruit?
No.

Too bad.
As Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

How would you know that if you had never met one of us before?
Jesus said He and the Father were one !
I hope you don't have a problem with Him too.

Not all christian sinners teach against becoming saints in Christ Jesus.

Paul says he is as a gentle nurse with babes in Christ that have yet to grow up to righteousness and true holiness, but with those rebellious children that refuse to do so, he says to rebuke once or twice, and then let them alone to their own willful sinning and hypocrisy, knowing they are condemned of themselves.

Heb 5-6 shows that babes who refuse to go on to perfection in Christ will become fields of briers and thorns for burning.

The branch in Christ that refuses to receive power of Christ with the faith to believe Him, will be dead in continues sins and trespasses, and will be cut off and burned.

OSAS is a very devilish doctrine that not only teaches wretched double heartedness for life from Rom 7, but goes on to judge and condemn those who do go on to perfection of Rom 8, as self-righteous proud boasters, who teach as the apostles do to live like Jesus as a man on earth.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If we don't go on to walk in this life as He walked in the days of His flesh, then we become dead branches for the burning.

OSAS is for wilfully dead branches, that talk as though they were alive by their faith alone, while declaring it is not possible to live like Jesus on earth.

Like the little hardened horn with an eye in Daniel, and the lamb with two horns that speaks a s dragon in Rev 13, they are committed to remaining dead in their sinning lives, while yet putting only appearances of being little lambs of God, and in all their wilful humility about how sinful they remain, they speak like the dragon when they condemn the righteous for doing God's righteousness on earth as He is righteous in heaven.

They are the Cains of christian religion, still arguing with the righteous Abel, who tells them their religion is all smoke and no blood.

They think to worship Jesus Christ as God, while making only an idol of Him as man, and accuse those who do walk as He walked, of making idols of themselves.

They not only declare it impossible for themselves to do so, but also declare it impossible for any others to do, because they themselves do not.

They are as Pharisees that seek to do good works outwardly, while remaining spiritually unclean within, and still sinning bodily, and so they do not enter into the kingdom of Christ, and forbid others as well.

However, they are not as righteous Pharisees, in that they make no pretense whatsoever of doing any righteousness on earth.

They are half-Pharisee doing some of the law, and half-natural man transgressing without law: they are the double hearted who teach remaining double hearted unto death, as the best any christian can do in this life.

Because they refuse the power of Christ to live like Jesus in the flesh, they think to make themselves sons of God conformed to their own image of being a christian.

In all of their words, we hear them talk and idolize about how Jesus lived as a man, but when they speak of their own lives, it's all about slipping, failing, falling, and never doing righteousness on earth without also sinning.

Obviously, this isn't a full explanation to your question, and I'm not too happy with the way I wrote it (sorry about that - hope its not too confusing), but I tried to at least touch on some of the major points as I understand them.

It's all about how they understand being a christian sinner for life, while trying to sound Scriptural in the process.

Frankly, I cease to speak with them personally at some point, because it becomes so pitifully routine and nauseating to anyone with sensible reason:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

OSAS proselytes are spiritually spued out remains from the mouth of Jesus, that keeps on talking about being saved by faith alone, and demand the church be as they: they despise and condemn anyone still standing in Christ on two solid feet of righteousness and true holiness.

Therefore, when I come across them, I move on to commentary only, lest by personally engaging them, I step in their gruesome stuff.