Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

Until one starts telling others that they have achieved sinlessness. Jesus himself NEVER said that of himself, although true. He says he is meek and humble. Taking about yourself is NOT the message of Jesus.
Are you free of all sin, yes or no?

With the exhortation you gracefully supplied, I will not answer.

No doubt. Are you? How do you measure this?

By my conscience.

Have you asked them? Have you sinned against anyone else?

No, I have not asked them.
I have no need to ask them.
Should I also ask them if they owe me money?
Things like that are unnecessary.

Our judgement of ourselves can be biased in the extreme. Others have often no interest in seeing us as greater than we are.

If our own judgement may be skewed, why think the judgements of others is not also skewed?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Until one starts telling others that they have achieved sinlessness. Jesus himself NEVER said that of himself, although true. He says he is meek and humble. Taking about yourself is NOT the message of Jesus.

Jesus never said it of Himself, and neither should we.

He did it, and so should we as He did.

Preachers of His righteousness to live as He is not talking about themselves.

Them rejecting and speaking out against doing His righteousness as He, are talking all about themselves, and nothing about Jesus nor His people on earth.

OSAS idolatry makes only idolizes Jesus the man, while making idols of their own way to live, calling it christian living.

They make themselves their own gods by their own faith, to be doing both good and evil, and presuming Jesus Christ justifies it.

 

[Hopeful]

Not all christian sinners teach against becoming saints in Christ Jesus.

Wanna bet?

Paul says he is as a gentle nurse with babes in Christ that have yet to grow up to righteousness and true holiness, but with those rebellious children that refuse to do so, he says to rebuke once or twice, and then let them alone to their own willful sinning and hypocrisy, knowing they are condemned of themselves.
Heb 5-6 shows that babes who refuse to go on to perfection in Christ will become fields of briers and thorns for burning.
The branch in Christ that refuses to receive power of Christ with the faith to believe Him, will be dead in continues sins and trespasses, and will be cut off and burned.

Those are the ones you said "don't" teach against becoming saints in Christ.
Want to reconsider your POV?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

With the exhortation you gracefully supplied, I will not answer.

This means that you believe you are sin free. Everyone who admits that their life is not free of sin admits it. It is to some degree an act of humility that the Holy Spirit within them, who demands truth, requires of them. The only ones who deny this are those who take scripture and insist it describes them personally no matter how they actually behave. They believe they really sinless "by faith" is it were.

By my conscience.

Ah, certainly the most biased source of measurement a man can have. Measuring your own holiness by your own conscience, a part of you that is extremely interested in the best possible outcome, is not how Jesus measured himself. He asked men to tell him what sin they found in him. He did not look into the mirror and determine that he was without sin.

No, I have not asked them.
I have no need to ask them.
Should I also ask them if they owe me money?

The debt would you if you owe them money or an apology or restoring some injury you inflicted upon them, not the other way around.

Things like that are unnecessary.

If our own judgement may be skewed, why think the judgements of others is not also skewed?

Again, because people see clearly the wrong that is done to them and sometimes do not see at all the wrong they do to others.

 

[rogerg]

.. He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. ... Matt 8:26

1) Think I answered those questions in my reply - that Christ hadn't yet ascended into heaven to send the Comforter. Did you not that in read my reply?
2) Even with the Holy Spirit, the faith of the saved grows over time. Did you not read that in my reply?

The FRUIT of the Holy Spirt verses are written after Oentecist and those character qualities are FRUIT not gifts, according to the Bible. Those fruits or lack thereof, are how we can judge the state of another man’s heart.

I said faith was a fruit of the Spirit - did you not read my reply?
Where do your interpretations come from? Faith - one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit -- is given with the Holy Spirit from salvation, not before. Salvation is the gift, from which, do all of the other spiritual fruits/gifts emanate. The purpose of someone being given the fruit of faith, is for them to have faith, nothing else.
Wat? Where in the Bible do you read that the purpose of the fruit of faith is "to judge the state of another man's heart"? That comment is particularly absurd, and generally, so is your whole reply. I think you make it up as you go along.

If you're going to insist on misrepresenting and imposing absurd interpretations on Scripture from your own imagination, you'll have to do it with someone else because I'm not going to dialogue with you any further.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Our judgement of ourselves can be biased in the extreme."

Self-confession of the blind, cloaked in humility.

How is it that those who know their judgement is biased in the extreme, are yet able to judge all others, with no thought for bias at all?

They judge themselves to be sinners for life, without any hope of not sinning today nor tomorrow, and then go on to judge all others the same as themselves: and yet they say they have no bias in judging others as themselves.

They also judge the only difference between themselves and the righteous, is that they are humble in their sinning, while the righteous must be proud in their righteousness.

With false humility they declare their judgement to be extremely biased, but then proudly declare their judgment of all others to be without any bias at all.

There is no sense nor soundness in the idolator, that judges all others as themselves, because they make idols of themselves, as their own ideal to jude all others by:

Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Even God comes to a point, where He asks Himself why He should bother correcting a blind idolator anymore.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"This means that you believe you are sin free. Everyone who admits that their life is not free of sin admits it. It is to some degree an act of humility that the Holy Spirit within them."

And here it is: hypocrite sinners calling themselves humble for declaring they will not do righteousness.

And they will not rest, until everyone else admits to be the same as they.

OSAS is for the Cains of christian religion.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Wanna bet?

Those are the ones you said "don't" teach against becoming saints in Christ.
Want to reconsider your POV?

I am making difference between the double hearted, that know they are wretched and seek deliverance from it by Jesus Christ, whom Paul is empathizing with in Rom 7. I was one.

However, the ones teaching double mindedness for life have taught themselves how to be saved hypocrites for life, who go on to also attack any saint delivered from double heartedness, and go on to the true victory over sinning in Romans 8.

Such false teachers and prophets are them who think their grand declarations of continued sinning against God and His word is 'humility', while accusing the righteous of being proud.

Their spirit of antichrist is that of Cain: they will not allow any Christian not to be as themselves, but must admit being as themselves. Being double minded hypocrites for life is the only grace, salvation, and christianity they acknowledge.

I have seen within the writings of others certain hints of such an evil spirit, but here we see it openly on parade.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1) Think I answered those questions in my reply - that Christ hadn't yet ascended into heaven to send the Comforter. Did you not that in read my reply?

The problem is the comforter is never assigned to give us faith. That is not anywhere in the scripture. He will TEACH us the truth but not grant faith or love or hope. That is a fruit in the life of man, not a give given. So I know this is how you deal with this, the problem is Jesus said the faith of the Roman BEFORE he had ascended and James referred to little faith or no faith AFTER he had ascended. There does not seem to be a dispensation in the Bible where there is no faith before Jesus ascended and faith afterwards. It is not there.

2) Even with the Holy Spirit, the faith of the saved grows over time. Did you not read that in my reply?

Sometimes it wanes. Do you know the parable of the different soils? Some of them experienced a loss of faith over time.

I said faith was a fruit of the Spirit - did you not read my reply?

You said the God gives faith and that is the only way we get faith. That is NOT a fruit but a gift.

Where do your interpretations come from? Faith - one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit -- is given with the Holy Spirit from salvation, not before.

That is not what it says. It says faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, not given by the Holy Spirit. Fruits are not given, they are the result of active faith in a life.

Salvation is the gift, from which, do all of the other spiritual fruits/gifts emanate. The purpose of someone being given the fruit of faith, is for them to have faith, nothing else.

No where does the Bible say that faith is a fruit given only by God.

Wat? Where in the Bible do you read that the purpose of the fruit of faith is "to judge the state of another man's heart"? That comment is particularly absurd, and generally, so is your whole reply. I think you make it up as you go along.

Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. Do you need that quote? That is exactly what he said. Judge a tree (another man) by their fruit (character.)

Actually I am going by what the Bible says. When you say faith is only Given by God, you are making that up. As I said, if it were so, Jesus would have told them and not chide them for having no to little faith. He made it sound like it is their fault, not God's (your position which you have to answered.)

If you're going to insist on misrepresenting and imposing absurd interpretations on Scripture from your own imagination, you'll have to do it with someone else because I'm not going to dialogue with you any further.

You can stop because you cannot answer the Scripture that you deny. Ive talked with calvinists before. They have no answers for a great deal of Scripture they have to ignore.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The only ones who deny this are those who take scripture and insist it describes them personally no matter how they actually behave. They believe they really sinless "by faith" is it were.

That of course is a good description of OSAS hypocrisy: they believe all Scripture of salvation, justification, grace, and eternal life in Christ Jesus applies to themselves, no matter how they go on sinning against Him.

And so they are sinless by faith alone: their sinning is no more seen by God, as he does the sins of others.

Scripture preaches being sinless in Him that is sinless, and so being without sinning, even as He is in this life.

OSAS preaches being sinless, by having their continued sinning covered by grace and unseen by God.

They preach the blood of the Lamb as no better than a bull or a goat, that could not wash away sins, but only cover them up for a season, and so they declare they can no longer be judged by the law of God: they are delivered from judgement for sinning, not from sinning.

They say Jesus has taken away their judgment for sins, not their sins.

 

[rogerg]

The problem is the comforter is never assigned to give us faith. That is not anywhere in the scripture. He will TEACH us the truth but not grant faith or love or hope. That is a fruit in the life of man, not a give given. So I know this is how you deal with this, the problem is Jesus said the faith of the Roman BEFORE he had ascended and James referred to little faith or no faith AFTER he had ascended. There does not seem to be a dispensation in the Bible where there is no faith before Jesus ascended and faith afterwards. It is not there.

Your logic is undecipherable. This is all I'll post because I don't have the desire to first make sense out of something
that is fundamentally non-sensical, just to be able to reply to it.

[Jhn 14:26 KJV] 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Hopeful]

This means that you believe you are sin free.

OK...

Everyone who admits that their life is not free of sin admits it.

I agree with that, and they almost seem proud of it.

It is to some degree an act of humility that the Holy Spirit within them, who demands truth, requires of them. The only ones who deny this are those who take scripture and insist it describes them personally no matter how they actually behave.

Would that be the scriptures referring to life in Christ, wherein is no sin?

They believe they really sinless "by faith" is it were.

Those committing sin are not free from sin.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Ah, certainly the most biased source of measurement a man can have. Measuring your own holiness by your own conscience, a part of you that is extremely interested in the best possible outcome, is not how Jesus measured himself. He asked men to tell him what sin they found in him. He did not look into the mirror and determine that he was without sin.

Ever heard of rebirth?
New creature?
The gift of repentance?
The death and burial of the old man?

The debt would you if you owe them money or an apology or restoring some injury you inflicted upon them, not the other way around.

Derail.

Again, because people see clearly the wrong that is done to them and sometimes do not see at all the wrong they do to others.

I can't trust sinners to tell me the truth.
It would be folly.

 

[crossnote]

The only ones who deny this are those who take scripture and insist it describes them personally no matter how they actually behave. They believe they really sinless "by faith" is it were.

And some think they are righteous due to their own works. (Rather than the imputed righteousness of Christ.

That of course is a good description of OSAS hypocrisy: they believe all Scripture of salvation, justification, grace, and eternal life in Christ Jesus applies to themselves, no matter how they go on sinning against Him.

Perhaps you can give an example of a person who thinks that?

OSAS preaches being sinless, by having their continued sinning covered by grace and unseen by God.

Another strawman argument; set up a fictitious caricatures so you can easily stick pins. Good one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

OK...

I agree with that, and they almost seem proud of it.

Would that be the scriptures referring to life in Christ, wherein is no sin?

Those committing sin are not free from sin.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Ever heard of rebirth?
New creature?
The gift of repentance?
The death and burial of the old man?

Derail.

I can't trust sinners to tell me the truth.
It would be folly.

What did Jesus say about the truth and freedom? Did he say the truth will set you free from sin? No, he says “IF you keep (do) my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” Free from sin, that’s not what he said. You have added that. You also deleted the “keep his teaching” part which covers many subjects. He himself says that if you are presenting your gift to God and you know a brother has something against you (you wronged them), go and make it right. Obviously he didn’t have in mind knowing the truth means you never sin against others.

But I will bite, what truth do you think you have that means you never sin against man again?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your logic is undecipherable. This is all I'll post because I don't have the desire to first make sense out of something
that is fundamentally non-sensical, just to be able to reply to it.

[Jhn 14:26 KJV] 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I have noticed a blindness in those who embrace a personally comforting theology (like chosen for Heaven no matter how you behave towards other people and God.) From discussing these matters with such believers I came to understand the verse “render their eyes blind and their hears deaf lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and repent.” At first glance it sounds like that is the goal, people being blinded. But after using scripture after scripture and reason that cannot be refuted against comforting (the flesh) theology, the response is an increased blindness and clinging to the comforting theology tighter. The scripture I quoted above is more like a resignation of the outcome that occurs in many although the prophet is command to speak nevertheless.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And some think they are righteous due to their own works. (Rather than the imputed righteousness of Christ.

This is also called a license to sin or to do no works of righteousness because you are already as righteous as you’ll ever be so why do anything good for anyone ever again.

 

[crossnote]

This is also called a license to sin or to do no works of righteousness because you are already as righteous as you’ll ever be so why do anything good for anyone ever again.

Except that you completely overlook one fact, when it comes to His own regenrate children…

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
[6] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Besides God knows how to ‘straighten’ us out …

Hebrews 12:5-6 NKJV
[5] And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; [6] For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

 

[RBDERRICK]

OK...

I agree with that, and they almost seem proud of it.

Would that be the scriptures referring to life in Christ, wherein is no sin?

Those committing sin are not free from sin.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Ever heard of rebirth?
New creature?
The gift of repentance?
The death and burial of the old man?

Derail.

I can't trust sinners to tell me the truth.
It would be folly.

I notice the sinner demands an answer from you pertaining to sin, and you do so, and they reject it as pride.

They then go on to say how the sinners of Jesus' day demanded also an answer from Him pertaining to sin, and He did so, and the sinners reject it and accused Him of pride as well.

Not only can you not trust sinners to tell you the truth, you also can't trust them to even know what they are doing and talking about.

Committed sinners just don't want anyone not sinning on earth in their own day.

They denied Jesus Christ coming in the flesh righteously in His day, and they now deny His body is come righteously in their own day.

Cain argued with and then slew Abel, because Cain was committed to sinning, and Abel was committed to righteousness.

So it was in Jesus' day, and remains so today.

 

[RBDERRICK]

OK...

I agree with that, and they almost seem proud of it.

Would that be the scriptures referring to life in Christ, wherein is no sin?

Those committing sin are not free from sin.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Ever heard of rebirth?
New creature?
The gift of repentance?
The death and burial of the old man?

Derail.

I can't trust sinners to tell me the truth.
It would be folly.

Today's unrighteous christian sinners are the spiritual children of the unrighteous Jewish sinners: They rejected the righteous witness of Jesus Christ in the flesh, and so they reject the righteous witness of His flesh and of His bones.

Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. (Mark 9)

They do not receive our witness today, even as their fathers did not receive our Lord's witness in His day.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3)

Unrighteous christian sinners do not believe Jesus lived altogether righteous as a man, because they do not believe any man in the flesh can do so, because they themselves love their own sinning more than doing righteousness at all times.

They don't mind idolizing His life as righteous, they just don't want to live it, and especially not hear it preached.

This sheds new light on the Scripture in John 3:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3)

Those who don't believe in being righteous as He was, nor in any believer being righteous as He is, do not believe He was righteous Himself, They only give lip serve to Him as having been righteous altogether.

Even as the Jews in Jesus day had made their own religion, and so rejected the man Jesus as the Christ, so do the unrighteous sinning christians of today make their own religion, and reject the righteous flesh and bones of Jesus as His saints.

Them that believe not the righteousness of Jesus' body, believe not the righteousness of the Head of the body.

Their unrighteous fathers did not come to the Light of Christ, lest their sinful deeds be reproved, neither do they come to His Light in His body.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1)

Even as they hate the reproving Light, so they also hate the righteous walking in the Light: unrighteous Cain slew righteous Abel, the unrighteous jews slew righteous Jesus, and if they are given power, the unrighteous christians will slay His righteous saints today.

Why? Because, by twisting of Scripture and rejecting the witnesses of the truth, they justify themselves in their sinning as christians on earth.

But righteous living cannot be twisted away from the truth: they must either accept it and be reproved, or kill it and continue searing their conscience against the Spirit of grace.

The spirit of Cain and of antichrist will remain on earth in the children of disobedience that hate the true Light of God's righteousness, until our Lord returns again to take up His church into the air, and destroy the wicked gathered against Him and His people that do His righteousness and sin not:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev 17)

Until that time, the beast makes war with the saints, to overcome them by seducing them to unrighteousness again,

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13)

Or to kill them outright to do away with their own reproof:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13)

Remember, it was the unrighteous jews that had Jesus killed bodily, against the will of the Roman governor.

Our warfare is not with natural sinners on earth, whom our Lord seeks to save, but against the self-justifying unrighteous hypocrites, that make war with Him and His saints.

 

[RBDERRICK]

And some think they are righteous due to their own works. (Rather than the imputed righteousness of Christ.

True, but whether they be Pharisees or unrighteous OSAS of faith alone, they are the same, in that none of their righteousness nor good works with unclean hearts are accepted and justified by Christ.

Only them doing His righteousness with a pure heart are righteous as He is righteous.

The rest are good works sinner or religious works sinners, but still sinners nonetheless, Not being the righteous saints in Christ Jesus.

Perhaps you can give an example of a person who thinks that?

You can read them for yourself, or if you don't agree with them, then it's probably best just to do as our Lord said,a nd Let them alone to go into their own ditches.

Another strawman argument; set up a fictitious caricatures so you can easily stick pins. Good one.

I don't mind honest disputes in doctrine of Christ, but I don't spar with them not believing what I say I have learned from others.

If you don't want to believe there are OSAS hypocrites teaching such things, then that is probably best for you.

I had to learn it by going through their muddy mess they make of Scripture.

Thankfully, I don't need to do that anymore.