Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rthom7]

Do good intentions count if they lead to the wrong end?
Guess I'll have to disagree with your article. And as with everything spiritual, we should turn
to the Bible to find its own explanations and definitions of words - the Bible is fully complete withing itself

Here is faith described:

[Heb 11:1 KJV]
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Rom 4:5, 14 KJV]
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ... 14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

The study is Bible based, in fact it looks up a huge selection of words using faith, did you read the study or make a hasty conclusion?

In Ancient Hebrew, the word faith means " The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

So sure the substance is hoped for but not seen. Heb 11:1

Rom 4:5, are you sure you understand it? You did not make a discussion? Quoting scripture is not a discussion, because different people read Scripture differently.

SHalom

 

[crossnote]

In Ancient Hebrew, the word faith means " The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

Do you know ancient Hebrew or just parroting others? Even current Hebrew was a dead language until the last century.

 

[rogerg]

The study is Bible based, in fact it looks up a huge selection of words using faith, did you read the study or make a hasty conclusion?

In Ancient Hebrew, the word faith means " The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

So sure the substance is hoped for but not seen. Heb 11:1

Rom 4:5, are you sure you understand it? You did not make a discussion? Quoting scripture is not a discussion, because different people read Scripture differently.

SHalom

I didn't mean to not make it a discussion, so please feel free to reply as you feel appropriate. The reason behind my choosing of Heb. 11.1 was to demonstrate that true faith is itself, in some sense, is a substance - it is tangible -- it is not conjecture nor a formulation of the mind, but Christ Himself who indwells those saved, the result of which is demonstrated in their burgeoning and increasing trust and confidence towards Him as Saviour: as the one who rightfully alone holds that title and who saves.
Regarding Romans 4:5, I think that I understand it, but perhaps not. The basis of my understanding is that true faith has at its core, works, yet a person's works cannot save them. Therefore, the faith that saves cannot be theirs.
The only way it can be possible, is if faith is given as a gift, and so the faith that does save, must be Christ's faith because His faith alone had the works needed to please the Father. That is why, in the below verse we read that "his faith" -- Christ's faith-- is counted for righteousness, not their faith. Any faith we might manufacture cannot be righteous because we cannot produce the works necessary to make it righteous. Okay, now having said that, what am I missing re your understanding of faith?

[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Oops, meant to include shalom.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok, I guess your use of 'his assumed belief' threw me off. I took it that Nicodemus had a genuine and real faith.
From the verses I gave you can see a growth pattern in him, from stealthily coming to Jesus at night (Jn 3), to questioning the Pharisees (Jn 7:50) to putting his faith into action (Jn 19:39)

Yes, it seems obvious that Nicodemus did sorta keep tabs on Jesus even after the John 3 episode, and the 100 lbs. of spices is quite revealing, so I hope he was willing to risk his position among the Pharisees, eventually.

He is only mentioned in the Book of John, so, anything else is mere speculation.

So true, so we can only wonder.
Perhaps we can find out while dining at Jesus' table, in the after life.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not definitive it is your opinion. If they believe they are saved by works, then what are the works, and why?

You’ll have to ask those think they can work their way to heaven.

Again, your opinion

Your opInion.

. Many denominations believe in works plus grace for salvation. I won't identify them now. For example, many believe their faith is what brings salvation, but faith is a work, so those who believe their faith is of their doing, actually are believing in works.

Wow, so in your opinion, choosing to have faith is a work. That’s a deception that relieves a man of the bother of even believing.

Nothing is as important as salvation, especially in God's eyes - that's is the sole reason that He sent Christ to this world.
Judgment, mercy and grace ARE the weightier matters of the law. Doing good isn't wrong, but neither
does it acquaint anyone with eternal issues and questions of salvation - unless, that is, it is the sharing of the gospel.

Again, all that a christian needs to do is give words, in your opinion.

His actions on earth IS the gospel itself. The things done by Him while here, to those to whom He gave/gives eyes to see, were apparent to them as such. His actions were not intended to convince everyone.
It is responsibility of those saved to explain His actions and make visible to them that they were demonstrations/conformation/validation of Christ as Saviour.

[Mat 13:10-11 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Oh yes, He does see them that way. In the physical body, everyone born to this world, dies.
However, he provides for bodily needs while this world continues, but His heart is to salvation.

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.



Christians are to render help with things carnal/physical to those in need - especially to other Christians-- however, that help while admirable, does not address the weightier matters of things spiritual - things eternal.
You may think my statements are a red herring - I think that yours are of trying to turn a spiritual gospel, into a secular, humanistic gospel focused upon the values of this world not of the next.

No, I think your position is one that elevates the cheaper matters, giving words, and belittles weightier matters which are more costly. This relieves you of the bother that loving others as you love yourself brings.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Describe your ideal Christian.
Would he be a homeless guy running with a gang of other nomads?
A tree killer, with no respect for the authorities?
A xenophobe who shuns other nationalities?
One not averse to calling a spade a spade?

Since you asked questions I will answer those, no.

I recognize that Christians are anxious to help others in need, and willing to give the coat off their back, but you judged that man without providing details.

What man did I judge? The brother who claimed he was sinless? I evaluated his theology and it is off.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, it seems obvious that Nicodemus did sorta keep tabs on Jesus even after the John 3 episode, and the 100 lbs. of spices is quite revealing, so I hope he was willing to risk his position among the Pharisees, eventually.

So true, so we can only wonder.
Perhaps we can find out while dining at Jesus' table, in the after life.

He'll probably be there so you can ask him personally.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm a study of amanuah (faith)

I could give you a list of good works atheist did. To say that only believers in Jesus can do good works is almost snobbery. It sounds spiritual and honoring of God but I’m pretty sure He doesn’t hold himself responsible for all the good works done (evidenced by promising to tell some humans “well done” and not be saying those words to the God in the mirror), nor does He blame Himself when good between men is scarce.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm

This is my understanding of what Faith is and how you get more faith each day.

In Ancient Hebrew the word means "The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

The way you get this flow is simply by speaking his words in the right attitude of prayer.

Read through the study, for I value your opinions.

When faith flows in you, it is termed good works. Shalom

My experience is when you obey the living God, faith is increased. This, of course, is much more unpleasant than speaking words in the right attitude of prayer. It’s actually pretty costly.

But what happens is your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit increases. Jesus talked a great deal about obeying God/keeping His teaching. God actually come and dwells in these.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you know ancient Hebrew or just parroting others? Even current Hebrew was a dead language until the last century.

I am particularly skeptical of those who flaunt their knowledge of Ancient Greek and/or Hebrew. Now it is true that modern man sees "faith" or "believing" as merely giving mental agreement to a position. Even worse, atheists define faith as believing something without evidence. Here the Greek or Hebrew might help, but frankly speaking, one can read in the English Bible what "faith" meant for those who embraced the teachings of Jesus. It was for them, in English even, a commitment and surrender.

Modern man also has the problem that is so common, that man are trained to hold conflicting views in their heads and committed to none of them. That is how they can tell themselves (and others) that they believe things that are directly opposite to each other. One sees that here. It is very common in posts people write, even the same post a few sentences later, the complete opposite of what they just said. So for us, believe has become a lighter word involving no actually commitment of living out what we say. We, in a few words, lie to ourselves about what we believe. Sometimes the ancient languages can point this ought although, one can see it in English as well.

Anyway, the way to knowing/understanding the Bible or truth in general, is to actually DO the teachings of Jesus as they apply to one's decisions. This is why the Bible communicates to each language group enough so that they can find the truth. I admit that modern "translations" (using that word very liberally) do remove some of his teachings making that difficult, but even they do not completely void the whole thing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The study is Bible based, in fact it looks up a huge selection of words using faith, did you read the study or make a hasty conclusion?

In Ancient Hebrew, the word faith means " The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

So sure the substance is hoped for but not seen. Heb 11:1

Rom 4:5, are you sure you understand it? You did not make a discussion? Quoting scripture is not a discussion, because different people read Scripture differently.

SHalom

You might find that a number of posters either cannot or do not discuss matters. The more common approach is to throw out scriptures like chaff and run for cover. So you’ll have to figure out who thinks and can discuss and who just assumes their particular choice of verses IS a discussion. The latter is a lesson in frustration.

Beware that if you CAN think, you will be asked to please provide scriptures INSTEAD. The God given mind is to be muted.

 

[rthom7]

My experience is when you obey the living God, faith is increased. This, of course, is much more unpleasant than speaking words in the right attitude of prayer. It’s actually pretty costly.

But what happens is your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit increases. Jesus talked a great deal about obeying God/keeping His teaching. God actually come and dwells in these.

Not sure I follow you, so I will provide an example of your obedience and my speaking the words in the right attitude of prayer:

Here is a few prayer promises of faith " Mt 6:22 Keep my eye single,

And

Ex 20:14 No adultery.

These two prayer promises ( based on obedience to the law, and attitude of the eye of the soul) ; come with a strong flow over you by a divine Being, simply by saying or praying these word in the right attitudes of mind, ie humble and meek.

When a man sees a woman in a certain way, there is a temptation to lust, so the man has a choice in the mind, to pray both of these prayer promises and allow an immediate strong flow of Jesus power to completely change the mind, or to pray for no power flow; and allow the natural carnal nature to take over the thinking of matters. On the outside people see nothing happening, but one the inside one is fighting the good fight of faith.

I see in my reply and experience that there is no difficulty in obedience, God is not asking something difficult of you (there is a Bible text for this); it is simply whether you wish to pray for Jesus' powers to come over you or not. In many of our pet sinning's, we succumb to, the battle is knowing which prayer promises to claim for, or perhaps we doubt the flow in the prayer, we are as James says:

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

We allow the sinning's to catch up on us, because sin is fun after all, even though sin does not satisfy.

When you support a prayer promise you cannot pray "half baked", or pray "presumptuously" , you are asking a Dine Being to strongly flow His powers over you, whatever you ask, He will do. You cannot mock His words, doubt them or even assume they are your powers to abuse.

I am not sure if you have every experienced anything like this process, I too an only a child learning to achieve the faithful powers of Jesus, even though I have been a so called lukewarm Christian for over 50 years. Over the years our child like efforts follow something like this maybe? , however, my training and experience has increased over the years. One can only get better and learn under the training of the torah, a word that means to teach.

Just my own two pennies. Shalom

 

[rthom7]

I could give you a list of good works atheist did. To say that only believers in Jesus can do good works is almost snobbery. It sounds spiritual and honoring of God but I’m pretty sure He doesn’t hold himself responsible for all the good works done (evidenced by promising to tell some humans “well done” and not be saying those words to the God in the mirror), nor does He blame Himself when good between men is scarce.

Yes good works can be done even by atheist's as you say.

Jas 2:19 the devils also "use faith", and tremble.

The fact is the devil also has a system of faith, Harry Potter promoted this idea on TV much.
The fact is many humans can achieve good works using human powers.
Paul uses this term "works of the law".

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

So the term "works of the law" refers to human based efforts to obey and guard the law.

The other term "by faith in Jesus" refers to a strong flow of power in you that does works in you God finds glorious.

Hope this helps to clarify...

Shalom

 

[Cooper]

Not sure I follow you, so I will provide an example of your obedience and my speaking the words in the right attitude of prayer:

Here is a few prayer promises of faith " Mt 6:22 Keep my eye single,

And

Ex 20:14 No adultery.

These two prayer promises ( based on obedience to the law, and attitude of the eye of the soul) ; come with a strong flow over you by a divine Being, simply by saying or praying these word in the right attitudes of mind, ie humble and meek.

When a man sees a woman in a certain way, there is a temptation to lust, so the man has a choice in the mind, to pray both of these prayer promises and allow an immediate strong flow of Jesus power to completely change the mind, or to pray for no power flow; and allow the natural carnal nature to take over the thinking of matters. On the outside people see nothing happening, but one the inside one is fighting the good fight of faith.

I see in my reply and experience that there is no difficulty in obedience, God is not asking something difficult of you (there is a Bible text for this); it is simply whether you wish to pray for Jesus' powers to come over you or not. In many of our pet sinning's, we succumb to, the battle is knowing which prayer promises to claim for, or perhaps we doubt the flow in the prayer, we are as James says:

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

We allow the sinning's to catch up on us, because sin is fun after all, even though sin does not satisfy.

When you support a prayer promise you cannot pray "half baked", or pray "presumptuously" , you are asking a Dine Being to strongly flow His powers over you, whatever you ask, He will do. You cannot mock His words, doubt them or even assume they are your powers to abuse.

I am not sure if you have every experienced anything like this process, I too an only a child learning to achieve the faithful powers of Jesus, even though I have been a so called lukewarm Christian for over 50 years. Over the years our child like efforts follow something like this maybe? , however, my training and experience has increased over the years. One can only get better and learn under the training of the torah, a word that means to teach.

Just my own two pennies. Shalom

Are you getting works and obedience confused?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not sure I follow you, so I will provide an example of your obedience and my speaking the words in the right attitude of prayer:

Here is a few prayer promises of faith " Mt 6:22 Keep my eye single,

And

Ex 20:14 No adultery.

These two prayer promises ( based on obedience to the law, and attitude of the eye of the soul) ; come with a strong flow over you by a divine Being, simply by saying or praying these word in the right attitudes of mind, ie humble and meek.

When a man sees a woman in a certain way, there is a temptation to lust, so the man has a choice in the mind, to pray both of these prayer promises and allow an immediate strong flow of Jesus power to completely change the mind, or to pray for no power flow; and allow the natural carnal nature to take over the thinking of matters. On the outside people see nothing happening, but one the inside one is fighting the good fight of faith.

I see in my reply and experience that there is no difficulty in obedience, God is not asking something difficult of you (there is a Bible text for this); it is simply whether you wish to pray for Jesus' powers to come over you or not. In many of our pet sinning's, we succumb to, the battle is knowing which prayer promises to claim for, or perhaps we doubt the flow in the prayer, we are as James says:

Jas 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

We allow the sinning's to catch up on us, because sin is fun after all, even though sin does not satisfy.

When you support a prayer promise you cannot pray "half baked", or pray "presumptuously" , you are asking a Dine Being to strongly flow His powers over you, whatever you ask, He will do. You cannot mock His words, doubt them or even assume they are your powers to abuse.

I am not sure if you have every experienced anything like this process, I too an only a child learning to achieve the faithful powers of Jesus, even though I have been a so called lukewarm Christian for over 50 years. Over the years our child like efforts follow something like this maybe? , however, my training and experience has increased over the years. One can only get better and learn under the training of the torah, a word that means to teach.

Just my own two pennies. Shalom

We likely are coming from very different places but that can make a discussion more interesting. (What I mean is, when two people completely agree, the discussion is pretty much over.)

The example of my obedience and your attitude of prayer does not match my obedience although I can see what you are saying somewhat better. I cannot, of course, speak to your internal thinking as that is not clear to me as we have only just met and I have read too few of your pieces to be able to say anything worth saying to your attitude. (I am of the view, that is admittedly disputed by some, that when you read enough of what a person has written which comes directly out of their thinking unless they merely quote others, you get a good idea of what and how they think. People write a lot about what they think and they are angry when you say you know what they think. I have no idea what they think they are doing when they express in words their thinking other than communicating their thinking.)

Probably needs to be said that I am a woman and so the temptations in the direction of lust do not at all come from seeing a man, dressed or otherwise. Women are not tempted by visual stimulus. Jesus spoke in the scriptures to men, males in that one for a particular reason. So that example does not resinate with me, I am afraid. It would not with most women.

That being said, you are addressing the state of being tempted to sin and asking for help so as to avoid doing that sin. You essentially ask God for help in the moments of temptation, right? Seems OK to me. Not so convinced about the wording as in the "power of Jesus flowing into you" but if you can resist temptation that is the main thing, whatever you call it.

Now my instances of obedience are both refraining from and active. I can give an obvious active one that applies to all Christians. We are to forgive those who sin against us. Period. This is something I have to choose to want AND ask for help to do so. When God points out that I have not forgiven someone, I have to acknowledge this and ask for help if the offense is pretty large. So in that I too ask for his help although it is more active than refraining from. Of course, forgiving others is helped along by the warning that if I fail, God will not forgive me. So there is more than none reason to obey.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes good works can be done even by atheist's as you say.

Jas 2:19 the devils also "use faith", and tremble.

There is a disconnect. There are people, not a few, who help others (doing good) because there is a need and they have compassion. There is no connection to faith. And I cannot think of a single good work the devil uses. I suppose one can say the devil uses faith when he gets people to believe strongly in a lie.

The fact is the devil also has a system of faith, Harry Potter promoted this idea on TV much.
The fact is many humans can achieve good works using human powers.
Paul uses this term "works of the law".

Here I disagree. The works of the law are the people in his day following the old Mosaic law with its dos and don'ts. The works of the law are not helping an old lady cross the street. That is just plain a good deed, not a work of the law and the devil is not involved unless there is more to the story that is wrong.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

So the term "works of the law" refers to human based efforts to obey and guard the law.

But who does this? I can tell you for sure and certain that atheists are not trying to obey any law and are not trying to be justified by doing so. They just do good things to help others because others need it. At least some of the time for sure.

The other term "by faith in Jesus" refers to a strong flow of power in you that does works in you God finds glorious.

Hope this helps to clarify...

Shalom

I do not see anywhere in the Scripture there faith is Jesus means "a strong flow of power" at all. Can you provide a Scripture for this position please?

 

[crossnote]

I am particularly skeptical of those who flaunt their knowledge of Ancient Greek and/or Hebrew.

Agreed, my approach by not being a Greek (or Hebrew) scholar (yet knowing enough Greek to be dangerous), is to compare reputable translations and commentaries with each other and especially with the Bible's context as a whole.
I've seen too many Greek/Hebrew 'experts' on the WWW to naively fall for just anything they say.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed, my approach by not being a Greek (or Hebrew) scholar (yet knowing enough Greek to be dangerous), is to compare reputable translations and commentaries with each other and especially with the Bible's context as a whole.
I've seen too many Greek/Hebrew 'experts' on the WWW to naively fall for just anything they say.

I’ve not generally been impressed by the general understanding of those who know the original languages. People they wrote to at time also didn’t understand necessarily and translation wasn’t the issue.

 

[rogerg]

Wow, so in your opinion, choosing to have faith is a work. That’s a deception that relieves a man of the bother of even believing.

No, it was taken from the Bible. What do you think these verses mean?

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Again, all that a christian needs to do is give words, in your opinion.

No, they do not need to "do" anything, neither is there anything in their power they could "do" that would earn them salvation: it is fully and completely a gift from a merciful and gracious God in all ways, given without price unto those He has chosen. They who have been saved have been called to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. Consider that the "words" you speak of so lightly, are not just any words but those which illuminate the Saviour. The sharing of them is an awesome, eternal responsibility God Himself has chosen to entrust to the saved.

No, I think your position is one that elevates the cheaper matters, giving words, and belittles weightier matters which are more costly. This relieves you of the bother that loving others as you love yourself brings.

The weightier matters of the law as explained by the Bible, not by me:

[Mat 23:23 KJV]
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You seem to have a natural bent to make yourself the final and ultimate arbiter of the gospel message forcing it into supporting that which you think should be right, you think it should say, and which you think it should mean, rather than is actually right, it actually says, and it actually means. Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for those saved, God did not follow your rules.

 

[Hopeful]

Since you asked questions I will answer those, no.

What man did I judge? The brother who claimed he was sinless? I evaluated his theology and it is off.

If it was "off" did you ask him about it or ask one of the men to talk with him about the truth?

All I see is that you evaluated a man as a liar and left him in his sin.
Did you show him what real sinlessness looks like?