Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

No, it was taken from the Bible. What do you think these verses mean?

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That’s a tongue in cheek. Jesus didn’t accept those who called him “Lord” proving they believed because he didn’t know them. James talks at length about faith and works assuming they are not the same. They aren’t the same. Faith is not one of our works.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Where is faith a work there?

No, they do not need to "do" anything, neither is there anything in their power they could "do" that would earn them salvation: it is fully and completely a gift from a merciful and gracious God in all ways, given without price unto those He has chosen. They who have been saved have been called to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. Consider that the "words" you speak of so lightly, are not just any words but those which illuminate the Saviour. The sharing of them is an awesome, eternal responsibility God Himself has chosen to entrust to the saved.

Except for those He unjustly and mercilessly condemns to hell for no reason.

The weightier matters of the law as explained by the Bible, not by me:

[Mat 23:23 KJV]
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

In your theology God is unjust.

You seem to have a natural bent to make yourself the final and ultimate arbiter of the gospel message forcing it into supporting that which you think should be right, you think it should say, and which you think it should mean, rather than is actually right, it actually says, and it actually means. Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for those saved, God did not follow your rules.

Ah, the ad hominem when losing.

When anyone I interact with is leaning towards Calvinism, I warn them that the God of Calvinism is hard and cruel because He chooses some for hell with no hope of salvation before they were born. This will have repercussions on their character with time. You fighting any obligation of good works is a fruit of that theology.

 

[D-D-W]

You're the expert on Pharisees, so if you know Paul's doctrine and you know the differences between those two groups, you should know your answer.
Since Paul does not contradict Jesus, perhaps the clue is 'which group of Pharisees continued to harass Jesus?

Not really an expert by any measure. But our Lord's doctrine seemed to fall somewhere between the 2 and Paul leans more toward Hillel; which is understandable since his mentor Rabbi Gameliel was Hillel's grandson.

For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on a Sabbath. (Joh 5:16) (Paul never did any such thing)

IMO it was the Shammai Pharisees that were on our Lord over healing on the Sabbath. In the records, that was one of the disputes between Hillel and Shammai, practicing medicine on the Sabbath. Hillel was for it, citing the positive command to preserve life trumps the negative command prohibiting work on the Sabbath.

Even Jesus told us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, (without making a distinction between Shammai or Hillel) ...

Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
(Luk 12:1)

I am sure both those major camps (and the many minor ones) all had their hypocrites.

 

[D-D-W]

Works are anything that we might attempt to do to contribute to, or to acquire our salvation.
Anything that is not a gift, in that regard, is a work. Salvation is only given solely as a gift.

I disagree. Not just anything.

Specifically doing the commands of the Torah (law of Moses) in order to be right with God. That was how Paul used "works."

 

[D-D-W]

Jesus did not command us to be giddy and smiling all day. He commanded us to love others as we love ourselves.

Actually He went beyond that:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

So it was not based on how we love our selves; (after all we might be suicidal) but how HE loves us.

 

[rogerg]

I disagree. Not just anything.

Specifically doing the commands of the Torah (law of Moses) in order to be right with God. That was how Paul used "works."

Only having been included under/in Christ's offering can make someone right with God. Believing otherwise is
in direct violation of God's word.

 

[rogerg]

That’s a tongue in cheek. Jesus didn’t accept those who called him “Lord” proving they believed because he didn’t know them. James talks at length about faith and works assuming they are not the same. They aren’t the same. Faith is not one of our works.

works are to faith as the spirit is to the body; that is, the spirit is within the body and without it the body is dead, so too
are works central to the existence of faith or that faith is dead - they both must exist simultaneously. Works are not an after effect of faith following along behind it. Only Christ's faith had both faith AND works and were indistinguishable from each other and which pleased the Father

[Jas 2:26 KJV] 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Where is faith a work there?

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Except for those He unjustly and mercilessly condemns to hell for no reason.

God judges all in sin from the womb.

[Psa 51:5 KJV] 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

In your theology God is unjust.

How so? Because God chose to employ His prerogative as Creator? What other alternative
is more just

When anyone I interact with is leaning towards Calvinism, I warn them that the God of Calvinism is hard and cruel because He chooses some for hell with no hope of salvation before they were born. This will have repercussions on their character with time. You fighting any obligation of good works is a fruit of that theology.

If you're saying it's better if salvation were left up to the individual to achieve, I couldn't disagree more. What happens
to those who are unable to come to faith and salvation for reasons outside of themselves: the very young, the very old, the infirm, etc? How is that just?

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture always commands loving God with a pure heart first, that we then love one another from a pure heart; otherwise, we are no more saved and justified by Jesus Christ than any other outwardly good sinner, while still inwardly corrupt with lust for sins of the world.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Matthew 5)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. (1 Peter 1)

Jesus did not come and die on the cross to pay the price for sinning, just to start a better religion than ever before on earth.

So long as Christians remain sinners within the heart, then they may make for themselves a fine christian religion in this life, but it is no better than any other finely made religion of man.

Christians receive Jesus Christ and His power within the heart, to become pure-hearted righteous sons of God, not just neighborly sinners in the Christian religion among the religions of man.

When our hearts are purified by obeying His Spirit within, then we know He is our Lord and our God: We know God and Jesus Christ within, and we keep His commandments from a pure heart of faith, beginning with the first great one first.

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Believing Jesus is the first step to keep the first great commandment, and obeying Him ends in doing so: we obey Him within first, with power to purify and keep our hearts pure for His name's sake.

And it is by grace through faith and not of our own will and power that we do so:

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

The only thing not possible with God, is to be sinning for the devil against Him, and be a born son of His on earth.

The Son was not sinning on earth as man, and neither should we His brethren of His flesh and of His bones, be found sinning against Him on earth:

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2)

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. (1 Thess 4)

I agree with all of the above.
Of course love has to come from the heart.
Nice post.

 

[GodsGrace]

Works are anything that we might attempt to do to contribute to, or to acquire our salvation.
Anything that is not a gift, in that regard, is a work. Salvation is only given solely as a gift.

Hi Roger,
OK, this is w here the disconnect might be.
What are WORKS?

I think we get works/deeds mixed up with the Law.

Paul said the Law will not save us,,,however Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law and that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:17, 20

So how do we reconcile the above two statements since the NT cannot contradict itself?
Paul cannot teach something Jesus did not teach...he even met with the other disciples to discuss the truths revealed to Him by our Lord.

We cannot "work" our way to heaven.
We cannot be saved by The Law.
Even in the OT persons were saved by faith...not by the Law.
In fact, the law cannot even be kept unless we have faith first.

This is why I asked you where does our faith come into play.
First we must have faith, and THEN we still must do the works.
Our faith does not diminish or eradicate our need to do good works...
but it makes it possible.

IOW, in the OT the Holy Spirit was with the saved.
Now, in the New Covenant, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to empower us to do God's good works here.

If we have to say that good works/deeds keep us saved, then so be it.
Perhaps this will be the new language I'll be using.

James stated this very well.
Faith without works is DEAD, because it's of no use to anybody.
Especially God.
James 2:16, 17, 20

16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[GodsGrace]

I emphatically disagree with that. No one can understand things spiritual until they become saved,
so would be impossible to teach someone that even if it were possible to become saved that way, which it is not

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is simply saying that to the natural man the things of God sound like foolishness and cannot be comprehended.

Man must be born from above.
His body must be born
and his spirit must be born.
John 3:5

The crowds to whom Jesus taught were willing to listen to Him and had a propensity to become faithful to God.
Those that did came to belong to the Kingdom of God...
Those of us who wish to be faithful to God will perpetuate His Kingdom on earth.

Think of how many times Jesus spoke of salvation...
and then think of how many times He spoke of the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 3:17
"...Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."

10 Connections Between Jesus and the Kingdom of God

Phillip Bethancourt explains that the Kingdom of God was important to Jesus and examines ten ways He related to the Kingdom.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[crossnote]

Of course love has to come from the heart.

Which highlights the necessity of the new birth…

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[rogerg]

What are WORKS?

I think we get works/deeds mixed up with the Law.

Works (and I'm referring to works for salvation), have to be intended to achieve the law - that is, if we believe in the efficacy of works. What other kinds of works would someone think can bring salvation - just arbitrary, random, unspecific works? And just to be clear ,and as I'm sure you know, I believe only in grace- salvation purely as a gift from God because He has chosen to be merciful to some, not in works for salvation.

Paul said the Law will not save us,,,however Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law and that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees.

Jesus fulfilled the law

[Mat 5:17 KJV] 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The crowds to whom Jesus taught were willing to listen to Him and had a propensity to become faithful to God.
Those that did came to belong to the Kingdom of God...
Those of us who wish to be faithful to God will perpetuate His Kingdom on earth.

No. This earth is part of the heavens too
[Luk 21:33 KJV] 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Isa 34:4 KJV]
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
[Rev 6:14 KJV]
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

[2Pe 3:12 KJV] 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Matthew 3:17
"...Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."

Repentance is to repent from dead works unto a faith in Christ.

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[rogerg]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Had been justified by Christ's works, not his. Only Christ can give spiritual justification.

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Christ's faith

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Christ's faith was imputed to Abraham- only Christ's faithfulness has righteousness, not ours.

[Rom 4:3 KJV] 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

If v23 was meant the way you interpret it, logically speaking, it should say that righteousness was counted to him for (because of) his faith, but instead it says that it (faith) was counted for righteousness. Therefore, since that Christ's faith that was reckoned, works and righteousness were also reckoned to Abraham. Faith, Christ's faith, was counted/reckoned to Abraham and because of that, he believed.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Gal 3:10-11, 14 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ...
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[rogerg]

1 Corinthians 2:14 is simply saying that to the natural man the things of God sound like foolishness and cannot be

Yes, exactly, however, we are all born as a "natural man", so until God first intervenes to change someone into a spiritual man, they are unable to comprehend things spiritual. 1 Cor. 2:14 is telling us that
salvation is dependent upon God's intervention. Until that happens, in spiritual terms, we are all blind, deaf, and unthinking and dead in sin - unable to give ourselves spiritual life.

The crowds to whom Jesus taught were willing to listen to Him and had a propensity to become faithful to God.
Those that did came to belong to the Kingdom of God...
Those of us who wish to be faithful to God will perpetuate His Kingdom on earth.

Think of how many times Jesus spoke of salvation...
and then think of how many times He spoke of the Kingdom of God.

Not sure of what your point is with this?

 

[jaybo]

Which highlights the necessity of the new birth…

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Quoting a single, out-of-context verse from the Old Testament doesn't mean a thing. It is true that the power of the new life overcomes this this problem.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually He went beyond that:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

So it was not based on how we love our selves; (after all we might be suicidal) but how HE loves us.

How does this have anything to do with being giddy and laughing all day? Where is there a connection so one is “beyond?” It’s like saying a shoe is beyond an apple. There’s no measurement there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Quoting a single, out-of-context verse from the Old Testament doesn't mean a thing. It is true that the power of the new life overcomes this this problem.

I hadn’t noticed that the power of the new life means all christians have over come deceitful hearts.

 

[Walpole]

Is the Vineyard (the Kingdom of God), for the laborers or for those who do not labor?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...-2&version=KJV


Is it possible to be in the Vineyard without being a laborer? Who does the will of the Father in the Vineyard, the one who works or the one who doesn't?
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...32&version=ESV


Cheap grace is for those who stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.
---> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...atthew+20:1-16

 

[D-D-W]

Paul said the Law will not save us,,,however Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law and that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:17, 20

So how do we reconcile the above two statements since the NT cannot contradict itself?

That is easy when you realize that our Lord was using religious jargon of the day that does not translate well into modern understanding.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

There were 2 main schools of Pharisees and several smaller schools. When their doctrines or practices did not line up, they would accuse each other of "destroying the Law." That was their way of accusing the other group that they were causing people to violate the law if they follow said teachings and deeds. OTOH, When they agreed that another group's doctrine and practices, they said that the deeds and teachings "fulfilled the Law" by helping people to obey the Law.

As to our righteousness surpassing the Pharisees, that is in our attitude. If you approach the "works of the Law" with the attitude you are doing it by yourself to try to impress someone (including God) then your righteousness is low. But if you do the exact same thing out of Love for God, your righteousness is high.

But that righteousness is not in itself salvic. The Jews our Lord was talking to in Matt 5 were already saved by being in the Mosaic covenant. HE was instructing them in how to properly walk out that covenant.

Paul OTOH was talking to gentiles who did not have a covenant with God. So they had to place their faith in God thru the work of our Lord on the cross to access the New Covenant.

 

[Hopeful]

You won’t find that view reflected in the New Testament, this focus on your personal holiness as a life goal. The focus is on loving God and loving people.

It is in the NT.
The command in in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
The way is in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
And in Romans 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The exhortation...1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
And in 2 Tim 2:19..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

That’s pretty condescending. I doubt God feels glorified by your words.

You did say you were "not his judge", when the spiritual judge all thing. (1 Cor 2:15)

Why?

I would like to meet others with clean hearts; lovers of God and neighbor.
I'ld like to hear his testimony and how/where he heard the truth.
I would like to provide the company of another person who is heard by God when he prays.

 

[Hopeful]

That is easy when you realize that our Lord was using religious jargon of the day that does not translate well into modern understanding.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

There were 2 main schools of Pharisees and several smaller schools. When their doctrines or practices did not line up, they would accuse each other of "destroying the Law." That was their way of accusing the other group that they were causing people to violate the law if they follow said teachings and deeds. OTOH, When they agreed that another group's doctrine and practices, they said that the deeds and teachings "fulfilled the Law" by helping people to obey the Law.

It is telling that you write "obey the Law" instead of writing "obey God".
I think that was the root of God's displeasure with Israel from the start.

As to our righteousness surpassing the Pharisees, that is in our attitude. If you approach the "works of the Law" with the attitude you are doing it by yourself to try to impress someone (including God) then your righteousness is low. But if you do the exact same thing out of Love for God, your righteousness is high.

But that righteousness is not in itself salvic. The Jews our Lord was talking to in Matt 5 were already saved by being in the Mosaic covenant. HE was instructing them in how to properly walk out that covenant.

Paul OTOH was talking to gentiles who did not have a covenant with God. So they had to place their faith in God thru the work of our Lord on the cross to access the New Covenant.