Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[D-D-W]

It is telling that you write "obey the Law" instead of writing "obey God".
I think that was the root of God's displeasure with Israel from the start.

I was replying to a question about the Law.

 

[Hopeful]

I was replying to a question about the Law.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, that's fine.
Our faith is not what saves. Christ's faith(fulness), works and obedience are what saves. At some point
in the life of an elected, His faith and works and obedience are reckoned unto them. Their faith comes to Christ
by the fruit of the Spirit through salvation, not to salvation.

If our faith is not what saves, what does
Ephesians 2:8 mean?
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

God's gracious gift to us because of His loving grace toward us...
We are saved by His grace THROUGH FAITH...

Of course Jesus was faithful, God is always faithful to Himself...
2 Timothy 2:13
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I agree that Jesus' righteousness is reckoned to us, not His faith. It is OUR FAITH that saves us.
Philippians 2:9
...[that I may] be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST, the righteousness which comes from God on the BASIS OF FAITH.

Explaining our faith is difficult because it is something given by the Spirit
not manufactured of ourselves. However, my belief is that it manifests itself
in the core conviction that Christ alone, completely, and in all ways, is Saviour, we are not.

Of course.
Who thinks we can be our own Savior.
If that were so, why would Jesus have had to die on the cross?
(as our atonement).

In perceiving Him as Saviour, we are more than willing to cease from our works for it because our faith and hope rests in Him and what He achieved, not what we might achieve - nothing more than Jesus is needed nor possible.

Where, in the NT, does it state that nothing more than Jesus is needed?
Why do we have many verses telling us what we must do?
Why did Jesus Himself leave us with so many commands?

I've posted the following before, here it is again:

https://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Now, does that mean we won't desire to do the good works of salvation? No, just the contrary,
to do so gives joy to those saved just by the doing -- it is not for gain, nor
to contribute to or leverage our salvation in any way, but just out of a pure heart.

Obviously, I can't explore all of faith's facets right here and now, so I hope this makes sense to you.
If I didn't answer your question, let me know and I'll try to clarify

Doing good IS FOR GAIN.
It's to better the Kingdom of God.
It's to make better His spiritual Kingdom right here on earth.
Whoever benefits from your good deeds GAINS.
I would also certainly go so far as to state that it DOES leverage our salvation since without good works
we show that we have NO FAITH since faith brings good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

I could ask you an equally absurd question, do you believe every christian is full of sinful ways.

Why was my question absurd?
I stated that the commandments of God cannot be kept 100%.
You stated that I was using that as an excuse to sin.
I then asked you if you believe a person could NEVER SIN.
(which some do believe).

A simple yes or no would have cleared that up.

 

[GodsGrace]

You did not ask me but I will nevertheless give an answer. Are we, as Christians, required to good deeds/works? I suppose it depends upon what your goal is. If the goal is to "walk humbly with God" then the answer is yes. Same as in any relationship with a moral being, you are required to treat the other with a minimum amount of doing as you would like to be done to. If one mistreats the other, the relationship will eventually be over. This is easy to understand.

If you want to "keep" your salvation, that is, keep your "ticket to Heaven" then this begs the question as to why one who has been given a new heart, that is, a new attitude towards men and God, would wonder if they have to do good for those they now love (that is what the new heart is supposed to result in, a love for people.) It is sort of like a man asking if he has to do good things for his wife, now that the wedding is over.

As to what happens to the man who genuinely experiences forgiveness of sins, the love of God for him personally, a new heart, and eventually walks away from it because of the pleasures and riches of this world or the trouble that comes to him because he is a believer, well, there are different theologies that offer different answers, some very comforting and some discomforting. Both of the answers cannot be true but that is not the discussion here.

Well Dorothy Mae,
You did what everyone else does:
You did not give a clear answer.

Here's my answer:
A saved person must obey the commandments of God.

As best he can.

 

[crossnote]

Quoting a single, out-of-context verse from the Old Testament doesn't mean a thing. It is true that the power of the new life overcomes this this problem.

I believe you completely missed my point. The quote I gave from Jeremiah, saying "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" was simply to question the validity of a statement that says, "love has to come from the heart".
If you want something out of the new testament and in context, try...

(Rom 3:9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
(Rom 3:10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(Rom 3:12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Rom 3:13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
(Rom 3:14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
(Rom 3:15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
(Rom 3:16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
(Rom 3:17) And the way of peace have they not known:
(Rom 3:18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Personally I prefer...

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It is short and sweet.

 

[jaybo]

Well Dorothy Mae,
You did what everyone else does:
You did not give a clear answer.

Here's my answer:
A saved person must obey the commandments of God.

As best he can.

By the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on human effort. Christians are governed by Christ via the Holy Spirit, not by the commandments of God. As we have discussed previously, the commandments, a.k.a., the law, is Old Covenant, not New.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm gonna butt in for a sec. Fran, please look on the Youtube channel, The Ark Files. There is a video named either The Ark And The Blood or vice versa. I really want to know what you think of it. Please. Is it believable?

Hi Dan,
I did watch it in two different times.
I enjoyed the first part and of course agree to all it said about the Ark.

I can't pay too much attention to the 2nd part, which very much amazed me:
About the blood with only one Z chromosome, or was it Y?? You know what I mean.
Also about the fact that the blood was "alive" and not old dead blood.

If I pay too much attention to this, then I have to give equal time to the CC which believes that some hosts have bled and that once the host is transubstantiated it has the qualities of the human body...can't remember what this is called.

Now, I DO give credence to the Shroud of Turin because no explanation has been found after all these years and tests.

He did bring up (the explorer, Wyman?) an interesting point which got me thinking.
He said the mark of the beast is when we obey laws of man that CONTRADICT the laws of God.

I was trying to think what they might be...murder cannot become legal...stealing...etc.
Have you given this any thought?
What law of man could go against the laws of God?

 

[rthom7]

But the verse say that none can come to Christ, not that the Father knows in advance who will make the choice to come. I think that means it is the Father's decision/prerogative/action as to who it is that He will draw to Christ, not a person's action, and so He draws them alone. I don't see any other way to interpret it. That verse is extremely important and significant in understanding salvation.

I see, Roger, tell me where does the Scripture tell you how to study the Scriptures, and it lists seven points all found in one passage across several chapters? I would begin there before I take a single verse and read into it what message you want to read....Do you know of such a place? Surely the Bible tells you how to read the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

You are saying we are saved by our works? If that is true, then we remain under law, and all will be found
guilty before God - Christ would mean nothing.

Faith is a gift imparted to those chosen by God unto salvation

1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You say faith is a gift imparted to those CHOSEN BY GOD unto salvation?
Where does the NT state this?

You posted 1 Peter 1:5,,,it states everything I've said so far.
We are KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.
Faith includes works.
Faith without works is a dead faith which means NO FAITH.
If we don't have faith, we can't be saved.

 

[rthom7]

Where is the scripture that discusses or even mentions a “flow of power?”

You mean in the context of amanuah?

Mr 5:7 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

And what prayer promise for this flow of power, did the woman claim?

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Jeff Benner (my Hebrew source) tells of this verse as a reference to the tassels on the garments of Yashuah and so the women saw and went and pressed onto the tassels and received the flow of power via faith.

Is this story enough for you? Shalom

 

[rogerg]

f our faith is not what saves, what does

Christ's faithfulness is what brought salvation and is imputed to those who God has chosen to save. "it is the gift of God". One could even say that what saves is solely that God had chosen to save those who become saved
before the foundation of the earth.

We are saved by His grace THROUGH FAITH...

That faith is Christ's faith: Christ's faithfulness to the Father is what brough salvation to fruition. His faithfulness is reckoned to those whom He had chosen

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Tit 3:3-6 KJV]
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Of course.
Who thinks we can be our own Savior.
If that were so, why would Jesus have had to die on the cross?
(as our atonement).

So, you agree we are totally dependent upon Christ in all ways for salvation and there is nothing that we can do
to bring it about or add to it. To be the Saviour, He must be the Saviour entirely in ALL ways.

Where, in the NT, does it state that nothing more than Jesus is needed?
Why do we have many verses telling us what we must do?
Why did Jesus Himself leave us with so many commands?

[2Ti 1:10 KJV] 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Generally speaking and depending upon what you have in mind, there are two primary reasons for those types of verses:
1) to instruct those who have been saved about the proper God glorifying way to live - we all have to be taught somehow. But those are followed because of their salvation, not for their salvation
2) to give wisdom to the saved
3) as warning to those unsaved.

Doing good IS FOR GAIN.
It's to better the Kingdom of God.
It's to make better His spiritual Kingdom right here on earth.
Whoever benefits from your good deeds GAINS.
I would also certainly go so far as to state that it DOES leverage our salvation since without good works
we show that we have NO FAITH since faith brings good works.

I disagree. Christ alone is the Saviour. With the above, whether you realize it or not, you are saying that He isn't the Saviour.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which highlights the necessity of the new birth…

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ummm. I'm not sure what you mean.
I know many persons that have no faith and that are very nice persons and have a good heart.
It may not do much good...since faith is necessary.

Read Jeremiah 17:10 - 13
10“I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.

11“As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid,
So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly;
In the midst of his days it will forsake him,
And in the end he will be a fool.”

12A glorious throne on high from the beginning
Is the place of our sanctuary.

13O LORD, the hope of Israel,
All who forsake You will be put to shame.
Those who turn away on earth will be written down,
Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD.


It states that God will give to each man according to his ways,
according to the results of his good deeds.
Doesn't sound like our concept of born again does it?

It's speaking to those that do not give their heart to God.
We are born in sin but can turn to God.
Much as
Proverbs 3:5-6 states:
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

6In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.



God tells us to trust in Him.
He does not command us to do something that is impossible.

 

[rogerg]

We are KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.
Faith includes works.
Faith without works is a dead faith which means NO FAITH.
If we don't have faith, we can't be saved.

Saved by Christ's faith, not ours. Our faith is given to us as a fruit of the Spirit from the gift of salvation

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[GodsGrace]

That is easy when you realize that our Lord was using religious jargon of the day that does not translate well into modern understanding.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

There were 2 main schools of Pharisees and several smaller schools. When their doctrines or practices did not line up, they would accuse each other of "destroying the Law." That was their way of accusing the other group that they were causing people to violate the law if they follow said teachings and deeds. OTOH, When they agreed that another group's doctrine and practices, they said that the deeds and teachings "fulfilled the Law" by helping people to obey the Law.

As to our righteousness surpassing the Pharisees, that is in our attitude. If you approach the "works of the Law" with the attitude you are doing it by yourself to try to impress someone (including God) then your righteousness is low. But if you do the exact same thing out of Love for God, your righteousness is high.

But that righteousness is not in itself salvic. The Jews our Lord was talking to in Matt 5 were already saved by being in the Mosaic covenant. HE was instructing them in how to properly walk out that covenant.

Paul OTOH was talking to gentiles who did not have a covenant with God. So they had to place their faith in God thru the work of our Lord on the cross to access the New Covenant.

I agree with the above except I'm not sure we agree about the New Covenant.

When God made the Covenant with Abraham, He said that one day Abraham would be the father of all nations.
The Davidic Covenant also states that the New Covenant King will rule over all nations.

Jesus atoning death is for all the world.
His death covers the sins of the past generations before He was even born.


So, yes, re the teachings of the Pharisees.
Yes, re what Jesus meant that our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees (due to the heart)...
But not all Jews were saved except those by faith,
and the gentiles that became saved became a part of the New Covenant.
We may be splitting hairs here...

 

[GodsGrace]

By the Holy Spirit. It is not dependent on human effort. Christians are governed by Christ via the Holy Spirit, not by the commandments of God. As we have discussed previously, the commandments, a.k.a., the law, is Old Covenant, not New.

The only difference between the OC and the NC is the Holy Spirit.
I do believe SOME human effort is involved.

Why do we sin at times?
Wasn't the Holy Spirit strong enough to keep us from sinning?

We do retain our free will.

 

[rogerg]

Ummm. I'm not sure what you mean.
I know many persons that have no faith and that are very nice persons and have a good heart.
It may not do much good...since faith is necessary.

According to a human standard, maybe. But based upon that verse, God sees it differently. All of the people
whom He has not chosen to bestow the forgiveness of their sins, He hates, spiritually speaking. The only way someone
can be made spiritually clean before God is if his sins have been covered by Christ's offering.

 

[jaybo]

The only difference between the OC and the NC is the Holy Spirit.
I do believe SOME human effort is involved.

Why do we sin at times?
Wasn't the Holy Spirit strong enough to keep us from sinning?

We do retain our free will.

The main difference between the OC and the NC is that, under the NC, our sins are forgiven. There were those under the OC who received the Holy Spirit, but their sins were not forgiven. They still had to offer sacrifices.

We sin at times because we don't pay attention to the Holy Spirit at all times. He is our guide, not our master.

 

[rogerg]

I see, Roger, tell me where does the Scripture tell you how to study the Scriptures, and it lists seven points all found in one passage across several chapters? I would begin there before I take a single verse and read into it what message you want to read....Do you know of such a place? Surely the Bible tells you how to read the Bible?

Not exactly sure I follow your point, but I think I can:

[Mar 4:2 KJV] 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

[Mat 13:34 KJV] 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Mat 13:13 KJV] 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works

 

[crossnote]

It states that God will give to each man according to his ways,
according to the results of his good deeds.
Doesn't sound like our concept of born again does it?

Romans 3 says we have all sinned and have gone out of His way.
What you describe sounds like salvation by justice rather than grace.