Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

Surely the Bible tells you how to read the Bible?

Should have included this in my prior post:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is in the NT.
The command in in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Does that describe you? It says “BE PERFECT” not claim you are.

The way is in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
And in Romans 6:6-7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

“Serve” is an active verb. Again, it is a “do or refrain from doing”verb. It is not a claim you can tell us describes your choices.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The exhortation...1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
And in 2 Tim 2:19..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Again, “departing from inquiry”is an active verb, not a claim you have done so no matter how you actually behave.

You did say you were "not his judge", when the spiritual judge all thing. (1 Cor 2:15)

There is an evaluating a theology like the Bereans did and there is pronouncing a sentence. Both are judging. You need to see the difference. The former is vital to avoid error. The latter is wrong.

I would like to meet others with clean hearts; lovers of God and neighbor.
I'ld like to hear his testimony and how/where he heard the truth.
I would like to provide the company of another person who is heard by God when he prays.

Sorry mate, but I do not detect a heart that is one that loves God and man that much. You come across as a man who likes to look in the mirror savoring the belief that the face looking back is perfect and sinless just like Jesus because words on a page (not real people) say you are. If you loved God you would take more delight in talking about Him instead of how sinless you are. Those are freed from sin are also freed from narcissism.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You mean in the context of amanuah?

Mr 5:7 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

And what prayer promise for this flow of power, did the woman claim?

But She had no promise to claim and she prayed no outright prayer to get that flow of power. She believed and acted upon that faith. It’s an interesting healing as she said no words of prayer, no did Jesus.

I guess her action was effectively a prayer of faith. But she didn’t go out with a flow of power in her in the manner you seek. Her body was healed. Jesus sensed a power had left him. This is not what you are teaching. You are teaching believing in receiving power for its own sake, not healing. Or am I mistaken?

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Jeff Benner (my Hebrew source) tells of this verse as a reference to the tassels on the garments of Yashuah and so the women saw and went and pressed onto the tassels and received the flow of power via faith.

Well, she received healing yes. She didn’t stand up and start preaching in power. Just healed in body, that’s it. No power demonstrated nor claimed by her.

Is this story enough for you? Shalom

So, do those in your group who believe this theology find power to heal all your diseases? I mean let’s get practical. Your example is a woman who had power flow into her to actually heal bleeding tissue. Does the power that flows through you and your group heal all your diseases similarly?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well Dorothy Mae,
You did what everyone else does:
You did not give a clear answer.

Here's my answer:
A saved person must obey the commandments of God.

As best he can.

“As best we can” renders your answer not clear. I know you think you alone gave a clear answer, but this “way out” makes it as unclear because what does “as best as we can mean exactly?” Who decides if it was as best as we can? The person? That’s a very biased judge with a heart that is very likely to deceive the judge (self.) Rebellion hides and tells the self something untrue as to what “our best” is.

But you do have a strong streak of honesty and for that I commend you. You couldn’t bring yourself to say we “must obey the commands of God period” because the Holy Spirit within you wouldn’t let that stand. You know you, yourself, don’t completely. There’s a tender conscience in you. My admiration for this.

 

[rthom7]

Not exactly sure I follow your point, but I think I can:

[Mar 4:2 KJV] 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

[Mat 13:34 KJV] 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Mat 13:13 KJV] 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works

Nice try Roger, well researched.... but this is latter rain torah, not the former rain torah, where the Bible first started.

Isa 28:9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

The priests were getting drunk on wine, so the prophet asks the question, whom shall he teach? Whom shall understand doctrine? The rest is a mixture of poetry similes, and makes the Scriptures difficult to unravel as well as fun....

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

When you read a theme in Scripture read all the words about that theme, every line upon line.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Always relate that theme or word study back to the foundation stone, a simile of Jesus, the Author of the words we are studying in the first place.

Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet:

A plummet is a mason builder using a plumb bob, so we line up each theme with other themes, to make sure they are in harmony with the others.

Poetry is fun, and readers can make sense of the similes as they are able. So I also do the same...

Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

A plough breaks up the pride bounded words, we stumble over and turn them into tilth , a more humble approach to the studying approach.

Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

Once we have some humble understanding of the words we study, we gather them as seeds, each word is a seed with power, again the seed is a simile of Jesus who is the word.

Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

One of the pitfalls of some people is they are not learned and
thus seek the opinion and traditions of so called learned men, who only boast over you with their scholarship and learning.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work

A miracle wonder promised by Jesus to all who seek the Scriptures....

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD,

We can have joy and finding things in the Scriptures, when God's comforter is our tutor...

And finally

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

You will hear the HS speaking to you in your conscience, which way to turn and which way to go in your studying of the words of Jesus.

So my friend Roger, while you might find a verse a little strange in it's suggestion, add other verses to it, in fact every verse and compare your summary to the themes of other themes, until you build up a correct understanding of Scripture.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Father is a part of Elohiym here, and He gives his one and only Son, that who ever has faith in the Son does not perish but has ongoing life.

Sure the Father knows all things, but He also invites all to the wedding feast, but than He also knows those who come and those who don't come.

Hope this helps.

Shalom

 

[rthom7]

Should have included this in my prior post:

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Nice verse Roger, only the HS can unlock the mysteries of Bible poetry.... it's hidden for a reason, to grant joy to the ones who dig out the treasures after a thorough searching.
SHalom

 

[rthom7]

But She had no promise to claim and she prayed no outright prayer to get that flow of power. She believed and acted upon that faith. It’s an interesting healing as she said no words of prayer, no did Jesus.

I guess her action was effectively a prayer of faith. But she didn’t go out with a flow of power in her in the manner you seek. Her body was healed. Jesus sensed a power had left him. This is not what you are teaching. You are teaching believing in receiving power for its own sake, not healing. Or am I mistaken?

Well, she received healing yes. She didn’t stand up and start preaching in power. Just healed in body, that’s it. No power demonstrated nor claimed by her.

So, do those in your group who believe this theology find power to heal all your diseases? I mean let’s get practical. Your example is a woman who had power flow into her to actually heal bleeding tissue. Does the power that flows through you and your group heal all your diseases similarly?

I am only a child learning how to do faith at increasing levels of wonders from Jesus, so I do not have all the answers you seek. The woman prayed the prayer promise in her mind, in fact the word pray is simply a term for talking to God, though it also means the more formal prayers on your knees in petitions. In fact talking to God in your mind every day, is what Paul calls praying continually.

I believe she did pray that prayer promise to receive that healing she desired, because in my humble opinion that is how faith works as a process.

Faith is the process of supporting another person. The first occasion of faith is here

Ex 17:12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were "supported" until the going down of the sun.

This English word will fit every context of amanuah.

Here is another context, Paul write about :-

(Context 4)Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by supporting Jesus Christ, even we have supported Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the support of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

• Ga 3:2 2 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by support of Jesus Christ might be given to them that support (Him).
• 23 But before Support came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the Support which should afterwards be revealed.
• 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by support.
• 25 But after that Support is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
  In this context, Paul is speaking of two ways we can support GOD,
  (1) one way is to do good works according to the teachings of the Bible, using our own human powers.
• (2) Another way, is to allow "Jesus powers" into our soul.
  

You ask if we have become a source of power via faith? That is a higher experience, and I imagine requires fervent prayer and fasting to achieve. Even the shadow of Peter caused miracles as we are told in the Scriptures?

My understanding you can use prayer promises to heal any manner of diseases, but some prayer promises require more prayer and fasting as I said before.

One also has to be meek and humble, not presumptuous and proud. As well as having no known iniquities in your present living.

I write these things only to encourage others to seek Jesus correctly through a better understanding of faith, if one was truly touched as you say, I doubt one would write further, lest we boast about these wonders..... My aim is to help others learn to become better in a relationship to Jesus.

I lost my glasses today and asked God to help me find them, after many hours of searching and eventually leaving it with God, in the late evening I saw them on the ground in the grass, and thanked God for this miracle. To others this is not much, but to me, it is a small sign of His goodness and grace. God is not into making big wonders for you, but more about the little miracles that daily teach us to walk humbly before God. Achieving humility is no easy feat.

Shalom

 

[rthom7]

But She had no promise to claim and she prayed no outright prayer to get that flow of power. She believed and acted upon that faith. It’s an interesting healing as she said no words of prayer, no did Jesus.

I guess her action was effectively a prayer of faith. But she didn’t go out with a flow of power in her in the manner you seek. Her body was healed. Jesus sensed a power had left him. This is not what you are teaching. You are teaching believing in receiving power for its own sake, not healing. Or am I mistaken?

Well, she received healing yes. She didn’t stand up and start preaching in power. Just healed in body, that’s it. No power demonstrated nor claimed by her.

So, do those in your group who believe this theology find power to heal all your diseases? I mean let’s get practical. Your example is a woman who had power flow into her to actually heal bleeding tissue. Does the power that flows through you and your group heal all your diseases similarly?

I give you another example, at work I often sin by speaking my own words from the Master Self inside me. Sometimes I remember and stop and ask Lord control my tongue, your words, not mine, and sometimes I sense a whole different communion with my work mates as we discuss the matters of God in our lives. My work mates smoke and swear and mostly are agnostic, and often challenge me because they know I am a Christian. The prayer promise I pray does enable me with words from God, but only if I pray them in my mind. Often I forget and speak using human powers, so the sinning begins again.

Jas 1:26 ...bridle my tongue,

1Pe 3:10 ...refrain my tongue from evil,

Isa 50:4 LORD give me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary:

Some of the many prayer promises one can sow in your mind in prayer, asking Jesus to empower your with holy words from God, rather than from men.

SO yes, one can receive power to speak and do, it depends upon which prayer promises you speak. Thus knowing Scripture is important for faith.

Shalom

 

[D-D-W]

What law of man could go against the laws of God?

How about the death penalty for converting to Christianity from islam? That is on the books in almost every conservative islamic country.

How about making evangelism illegal? On the books in many countries, and some states have tried to get that legislation passed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Works (and I'm referring to works for salvation), have to be intended to achieve the law - that is, if we believe in the efficacy of works. What other kinds of works would someone think can bring salvation - just arbitrary, random, unspecific works? And just to be clear ,and as I'm sure you know, I believe only in grace- salvation purely as a gift from God because He has chosen to be merciful to some, not in works for salvation.

There are no works for salvation.
How many times must this be repeated?
There are works AFTER salvation.
They are not intended to achieve the Law...but to please God.
God's commandments are not abolished because we become saved.
They are still in effect.
The 10 commandments, among others, are still in effect and will never be abolished.

2 Timothy 3:16​

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,​

Matthew 7:21​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:17​

And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 6:46​

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Jeremiah 31:33​

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

​

What exactly is it about the above that is not very clear?
God put the laws within our hearts...
but the laws are still present and to be obeyed.

Jesus fulfilled the law

[Mat 5:17 KJV] 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

So what does it mean to fulfill the Law?
Does this one verse go against every other verse where Jesus telll us we are to obey the commandments?

Matthew 10:17-31
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” ...

Jesus told the young man to obey the commandments...
AND MORE....as for each one of us, the requirement may be different. In this case the young man had to give up his LOVE for his material goods.

The meaning of fulfilling the law:

The translation of “to fulfill” is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish. David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase “fulfill the Law” is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.2​

The word “abolish” was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la’akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as only about cheating on one’s spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was “fulfilling the Law.”

sourece: https://engediresourcecenter.com/2018/11/09/what-it-means-to-fulfill-the-law-parts-1-2/

​

No. This earth is part of the heavens too
[Luk 21:33 KJV] 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Isa 34:4 KJV]
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
[Rev 6:14 KJV]
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

[2Pe 3:12 KJV] 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I'm not willing to debate this at this time.
If you don't believe Jesus came to set up God's Kingdom on earth, then so be it.
I gave you enough support for my statements.
(which are not mine, BTW, but accepted basic theology)

Repentance is to repent from dead works unto a faith in Christ.

[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Agreed.
Faith without works is a dead faith.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD WORKS.
I've already stated this several times.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.

We need faith FIRST...
and THEN good works/deeds.

 

[GodsGrace]

Had been justified by Christ's works, not his. Only Christ can give spiritual justification.

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Abraham was justified BY HIS OWN WORKS.
Where in the following verse that I had posted does it say that it was through Christ's faith?:

Genesis 15:6
6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Abraham BELIEVED in the Lord, and it was reckoned to h im as righteousness.
Where does it state that Abraham was saved due to Jesus' faith???

Besides, as I've stated before, you're getting faith mixed up with righteousness.

Christ's faith was imputed to Abraham- only Christ's faithfulness has righteousness, not ours.

[Rom 4:3 KJV] 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

See above.
Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS was imputed to Abraham...NOT HIS FAITH.
The faith must be OURS.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace have you been saved THROUGH FAITH...

Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

We are justified by FAITH IN CHRIST....
IN CHRIST.

If v23 was meant the way you interpret it, logically speaking, it should say that righteousness was counted to him for (because of) his faith, but instead it says that it (faith) was counted for righteousness. Therefore, since that Christ's faith that was reckoned, works and righteousness were also reckoned to Abraham. Faith, Christ's faith, was counted/reckoned to Abraham and because of that, he believed.

Please , just post one verse that states that we are saved by Christ's faith.

And since when does GOD need faith???
Do YOU need faith to know that you are Roger???

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are justified by the grace of God.
Agreed.
But for the grace of God, we would be nothing.

[Gal 3:10-11, 14 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ...
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Again, for the umpteenth time,
NO ONE IS SAVED BY WORKS or works of The Law.
We are saved and shall live BY FAITH.
OUR FAITH in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about the death penalty for converting to Christianity from islam? That is on the books in almost every conservative islamic country.

How about making evangelism illegal? On the books in many countries, and some states have tried to get that legislation passed.

Correct.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, exactly, however, we are all born as a "natural man", so until God first intervenes to change someone into a spiritual man, they are unable to comprehend things spiritual. 1 Cor. 2:14 is telling us that
salvation is dependent upon God's intervention. Until that happens, in spiritual terms, we are all blind, deaf, and unthinking and dead in sin - unable to give ourselves spiritual life.


Not sure of what your point is with this?

My point is that we are not so BLIND, DEAF AND UNTHINKING that we are unable to hear the voice of God and respond to it.

Acts 16:31
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

The jailer then believed in Jesus.
He was not so blind, deaf or unthinking as to not UNDERSTAND and repent.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.


God's salvation has appeared to all men and also God's teaching. So clearly, it could be understood, but some deny it.
And, again, as you see, His people must be zealous for good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

The main difference between the OC and the NC is that, under the NC, our sins are forgiven. There were those under the OC who received the Holy Spirit, but their sins were not forgiven. They still had to offer sacrifices.

We sin at times because we don't pay attention to the Holy Spirit at all times. He is our guide, not our master.

Right. The Holy Spirit is not our master.
So we cannot say that we do not sin because of the Holy Spirit.
He speaks to us but He does not COMMAND us and removes our free will.

Sacrifices were offered once per year. So if a faithful person died before making the sacrifice, he didn't go with God?

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 3 says we have all sinned and have gone out of His way.
What you describe sounds like salvation by justice rather than grace.

Well crossnote,
God is a just God.

However, in keeping with the fact that works and good deeds are necessary after salvation,
I'd go ahead and state emphatically that if we do not change our life and do good works in the name of God,
I doubt that we would be truly saved.
Faith produces good works.
No good works means there is no faith.
No faith, no salvation.

We have all sinned but unfortunately not all will turn to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

“As best we can” renders your answer not clear. I know you think you alone gave a clear answer, but this “way out” makes it as unclear because what does “as best as we can mean exactly?” Who decides if it was as best as we can? The person? That’s a very biased judge with a heart that is very likely to deceive the judge (self.) Rebellion hides and tells the self something untrue as to what “our best” is.

But you do have a strong streak of honesty and for that I commend you. You couldn’t bring yourself to say we “must obey the commands of God period” because the Holy Spirit within you wouldn’t let that stand. You know you, yourself, don’t completely. There’s a tender conscience in you. My admiration for this.

I thank you for the very kind words.
I don't believe anyone can keep the commandments 100%.
Which goes back to my original question to you regarding this.
I think we all sin, although it most probably is kept at a minimum if we have love for our Savior,
and this is why John tell us to confess our sins and they will be forgiven.
1 John 1:9
1 John 2:1

And, let's remember, God cannot be fooled.
HE is the judge.

 

[crossnote]

I'd go ahead and state emphatically that if we do not change our life and do good works in the name of God,

I’d agree with that, except it’s God that does the changing…

1 Corinthians 15:10 NASB
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.


Romans 5:10 NASB
[10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

[jaybo]

There are no works for salvation.
How many times must this be repeated?
There are works AFTER salvation.
They are not intended to achieve the Law...but to please God.
God's commandments are not abolished because we become saved.
They are still in effect.
The 10 commandments, among others, are still in effect and will never be abolished.

2 Timothy 3:16​

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,​

Matthew 7:21​

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:17​

And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Luke 6:46​

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Jeremiah 31:33​

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

​

What exactly is it about the above that is not very clear?
God put the laws within our hearts...
but the laws are still present and to be obeyed.


So what does it mean to fulfill the Law?
Does this one verse go against every other verse where Jesus telll us we are to obey the commandments?

Matthew 10:17-31
And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” ...

Jesus told the young man to obey the commandments...
AND MORE....as for each one of us, the requirement may be different. In this case the young man had to give up his LOVE for his material goods.

The meaning of fulfilling the law:

The translation of “to fulfill” is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish. David Bivin has pointed out that the phrase “fulfill the Law” is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.2

The word “abolish” was likely either levatel, to nullify, or la’akor, to uproot, which meant to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it. For example, the law against adultery could be interpreted as only about cheating on one’s spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so in rabbinic parlance he was “fulfilling the Law.”

sourece: https://engediresourcecenter.com/2018/11/09/what-it-means-to-fulfill-the-law-parts-1-2/

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I'm not willing to debate this at this time.
If you don't believe Jesus came to set up God's Kingdom on earth, then so be it.
I gave you enough support for my statements.
(which are not mine, BTW, but accepted basic theology)


Agreed.
Faith without works is a dead faith.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD WORKS.
I've already stated this several times.

FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.

We need faith FIRST...
and THEN good works/deeds.

So Paul was wrong when he wrote "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body[k] to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:4-6

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I thank you for the very kind words.
I don't believe anyone can keep the commandments 100%.
Which goes back to my original question to you regarding this.
I think we all sin, although it most probably is kept at a minimum if we have love for our Savior,
and this is why John tell us to confess our sins and they will be forgiven.
1 John 1:9
1 John 2:1

And, let's remember, God cannot be fooled.
HE is the judge.

The ten commandments are pretty easy to keep. I mean, which of us has murdered or stolen a man’s goods. It’s the loving others as you love yourself that tough.

The problem with lowering the bar to “no one can obey 100%” is it begs the question as to what % is ok and does God measure % anyway? What if God measures particular disobedience as worse than another? What if numbers aren’t important to him? uh oh!

And yes, I agree. He is faithful to forgive confessed sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I give you another example, at work I often sin by speaking my own words from the Master Self inside me. Sometimes I remember and stop and ask Lord control my tongue, your words, not mine, and sometimes I sense a whole different communion with my work mates as we discuss the matters of God in our lives. My work mates smoke and swear and mostly are agnostic, and often challenge me because they know I am a Christian. The prayer promise I pray does enable me with words from God, but only if I pray them in my mind. Often I forget and speak using human powers, so the sinning begins again.

Jas 1:26 ...bridle my tongue,

1Pe 3:10 ...refrain my tongue from evil,

Isa 50:4 LORD give me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary:

Some of the many prayer promises one can sow in your mind in prayer, asking Jesus to empower your with holy words from God, rather than from men.

SO yes, one can receive power to speak and do, it depends upon which prayer promises you speak. Thus knowing Scripture is important for faith.

Shalom

I’m glad you find words from Him to speak. The nomenclature you use is really different and I don’t find the Bible authors referring to these matters in those terms.

I read you other answer. I find that you insert words or decisions into the text to fit your understanding rather than let the words there adjust your understanding. The woman had to have prayed words because your position requires it. The plain text for what it says and doesn’t say is not accepted as written. You kind of teach it rather than it teaching you. I don’t view the scripture that way.