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Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

Dorothy Mae said:
I read Bonhoeffer as a teenager. “When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.”
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To me this means to die to ones Self.
It could be for the family, or friends or everyone, but it requires putting yourself second in order to do what God would will of you.

I also believe it could be something different for each person, although the will of God remains basic, foundational.

Grace becomes cheap when we take Jesus' sacrifice which cost Him everything, including becoming human, and we are not ready to give anything in return...

Arguing instead that He did it all and nothing is required from us.

Besides the clear fact that this teaching is nowhere to be found in the NT, let alone the teachings of Jesus.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Roger means it cost Jesus everything so you shouldn’t call it cheap. What Bonhoeffer meant by cheap grace is that it costs the believer nothing. The term is appropriate.
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The bringing forth of grace cost Jesus everything, and having brought it forth, He gives freely to His chosen: its price is far beyond anyone's ability to purchase or deserve it-- that is what makes it grace -- if it has to be purchased, earned or kept by man in any sense, then it isn't grace.
That it is it is a completely free gift from God, is the secret that He has hidden away and shares only with those whom He saves after salvation: God is an exceedingly merciful, gracious and kind God far beyond anything that we can think or imagine.
I'm not at all hopeful that in asking this will do any good, but once again I'll try and humbly request that the following verses be studied slowly, repeatedly, carefully, and pondered deeply for their intent.
These verses are just a sampling of the verses that pertain to grace and salvation.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

[Gal 2:21 KJV] 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Eph 1:7 KJV] 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[1Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
 
rogerg said:
The bringing forth of grace cost Jesus everything, and having brought it forth, He gives freely to His chosen: its price is far beyond anyone's ability to purchase or deserve it-- that is what makes it grace -- if it has to be purchased, earned or kept by man in any sense, then it isn't grace.
That it is it is a completely free gift from God, is the secret that He has hidden away and shares only with those whom He saves after salvation: God is an exceedingly merciful, gracious and kind God far beyond anything that we can think or imagine.
I'm not at all hopeful that in asking this will do any good, but once again I'll try and humbly request that the following verses be studied slowly, repeatedly, carefully, and pondered deeply for their intent.
These verses are just a sampling of the verses that pertain to grace and salvation.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

[Gal 2:21 KJV] 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Eph 1:7 KJV] 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[1Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
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Well said Roger, Jesus was kind to make provision for us to be saved, nothing any we do enables us to be saved.
God says without me ye can do nothing.

The title of this thread is doing the works , but which works?
And why do we do works? And which works do we do?

The scriptures tell us that is is impossible to please God without doing faith. We are saved by faith in Jesus, the author and finished of our faith.

Obviously when we do works of faith, we are showing our responding love to Jesus grace of providing the love that salvation is. It is therefore appropriate that we respond to that love with works of faith, not in order to enable our salvation, but because we are moved by His salvation flowing in us.

Shalom
 
Runmyramble said:
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.
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We only have one job to do and that is to spread the Gospel. And what is the Gospel? The LOVE that the Father sent in the form of HIS son. I agree with what Paul says!
 
Miyagisan said:
We only have one job to do and that is to spread the Gospel. And what is the Gospel? The LOVE that the Father sent in the form of HIS son. I agree with what Paul says!
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The Gospel to me is that the Kingdom of God is available to anyone who puts confidence in Jesus.

Mark 1
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Romana 14:7
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
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Runmyramble said:
The Gospel to me is that the Kingdom of God is available to anyone who puts confidence in Jesus.

Mark 1
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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I just have to ask this as I’ve been thinking about it. Confidence in Jesus to do what exactly?

This is important because believing God exists will not help a man at judgement. The demons know He does. Agreeing Jesus is the son of God will likely also not make a difference. The demons know that too.

So confidence in what precisely.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I just have to ask this as I’ve been thinking about it. Confidence in Jesus to do what exactly?

This is important because believing God exists will not help a man at judgement. The demons know He does. Agreeing Jesus is the son of God will likely also not make a difference. The demons know that too.

So confidence in what precisely.
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Confidence in Jesus first for who He is, "the son of the living God" with intent to follow Him.
 
rogerg said:
The bringing forth of grace cost Jesus everything, and having brought it forth, He gives freely to His chosen: its price is far beyond anyone's ability to purchase or deserve it-- that is what makes it grace -- if it has to be purchased, earned or kept by man in any sense, then it isn't grace.
That it is it is a completely free gift from God, is the secret that He has hidden away and shares only with those whom He saves after salvation: God is an exceedingly merciful, gracious and kind God far beyond anything that we can think or imagine.
I'm not at all hopeful that in asking this will do any good, but once again I'll try and humbly request that the following verses be studied slowly, repeatedly, carefully, and pondered deeply for their intent.
These verses are just a sampling of the verses that pertain to grace and salvation.

[Heb 7:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

[Rom 5:15 KJV] 15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 5:21 KJV] 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Rom 11:6 KJV] 6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[1Co 1:4 KJV] 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

[Gal 2:21 KJV] 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[Eph 1:7 KJV] 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[1Pe 1:10 KJV] 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:
Click to expand...
Roger, have you studied, prayerfully the following verses:

Matthew 6:16 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25, parable of the sheep and goats..
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Roger, have you studied, prayerfully the following verses:

Matthew 6:16 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 25, parable of the sheep and goats..
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The first 2 maybe
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
That’s it. You base your definition on ONE verse ignoring all the others that describe your costly part? The demons believe as you do, you know. They quote scripture too, single verses out of context ignoring the rest.
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You asked me where in the Bible...... you did not say give 10 scriptures.
 
Runmyramble said:
You asked me where in the Bible...... you did not say give 10 scriptures.
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Except your view clashes with the verse that says the demons believe too. That’s no virtue with God.

Jesus told one guy he had to sell everything. He told most to
follow him. All had to give up
some aspect. “Believe” means surrender your self and believe/do all he teaches. It doesn’t mean “think he is the Christ and you’ll go to Heaven.”
 
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rogerg said:
I thought I did -- I don't follow your point? Please clarify.
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Do you realize that if you refuse to forgive others you will not be forgiven, free gift of grace not withstanding? No forgiveness given to man means no forgiveness given to that man, chosen before the foundations of the world or not. Is this clear? Jesus said it more than once.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Except your view clashes with the verse that says the demons believe too. That’s no virtue with God.

Jesus told one guy he had to sell everything. He told most to
follow him. All had to give up
some aspect. “Believe” means surrender your self and believe/do all he teaches. It doesn’t mean “think he is the Christ and you’ll go to Heaven.”
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No it does not, because I said belief with the intent to follow. Because that is the type of faith that saves.

Sounds like you are ready to attack without reading....and that does not make any friends...

You need to be gentle... and say things in love....If your faith has not got you there then you may have to examine your walk.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Do you realize that if you refuse to forgive others you will not be forgiven, free gift of grace not withstanding? No forgiveness given to man means no forgiveness given to that man, chosen before the foundations of the world or not. Is this clear? Jesus said it more than once.
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Yes, and since the Bible cannot contradict itself, there must be a common thread between doctrine to
harmonize them. That thread is that as a by-product of salvation, the saved have been given a new, redeemed spiritual mind and heart. From that, their spiritual understanding/perceptions have been increased, and through the Holy Spirit, they demonstrate the attributes Jesus spoke of, in particular, forgiving from the heart, which forgiving is manifested to others -- unto those who are also to become saved through the edifying of them -- that they are no longer under judgment of law but grace through Christ for salvation. Believing in the eternal truth of that, they gain a desire to share it from their heart of hearts to others (however, that sharing will only find a place within the hearts of those chosen by God to salvation, not everyone). So, the kind of forgiveness which Jesus was addressing in those verses, was eternal forgiveness, not a temporal/humanistic forgiveness of the moment arising from human emotions - although those saved will also tend to be more forgiving/patient in that realm also.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I think Roger wants it all to be free…no strings attached.
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Not a question of what Roger wants at all, although Roger does most definitely likes that God in His mercy and grace did it that way. The verses that I posted yesterday weren't of me, they were directly from the Bible, written by God.
Did you actually read those? If so, then why don't you address the error in them if you disagree with them so that we all can learn?
And yes, there are no strings attached for the receiving of salvation besides that God had chosen someone for salvation.
Isn't it fully within His prerogative and good pleasure as God to do exactly that? If not, why? He gives physical life to whom He chose to, cannot He not more-so do the same with spiritual life?
 
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