Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Runmyramble]

Yes, and since the Bible cannot contradict itself, there must be a common thread between doctrine to
harmonize them. That thread is that as a by-product of salvation, the saved have been given a new, redeemed spiritual mind and heart. From that, their spiritual understanding/perceptions have been increased, and through the Holy Spirit, they demonstrate the attributes Jesus spoke of, in particular, forgiving from the heart, which forgiving is manifested to others -- unto those who are also to become saved through the edifying of them -- that they are no longer under judgment of law but grace through Christ for salvation. Believing in the eternal truth of that, they gain a desire to share it from their heart of hearts to others (however, that sharing will only find a place within the hearts of those chosen by God to salvation, not everyone). So, the kind of forgiveness which Jesus was addressing in those verses, was eternal forgiveness, not a temporal/humanistic forgiveness of the moment arising from human emotions - although those saved will also tend to be more forgiving/patient in that realm also.

Oh I did not understand the purpose of why she posted those passages...but now I see.

Dorothy Mae
Everything has order...You see if you have come to be revealed by God that Jesus is the son of the living God. THIS IS THE FOUNDATION WHICH JESUS SAID HE WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH. (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth) that passage came to me so I thought I better type it down.

Everything starts with God, ends with God an in the middle done with God.

Everything is created by Him, through Him and For Him....

In the beginning according to John 1:1
was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

So our foundation is GOD...For it seems God is His word.

OUR FAITH WORKS BY LOVE...MEANING BEHIND WHAT WE DO THE MOTIVE WILL BE LOVE. FOR God is Love....I will finish later if I must. But peace to you...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No it does not, because I said belief with the intent to follow. Because that is the type of faith that saves.

Sounds like you are ready to attack without reading....and that does not make any friends...

You need to be gentle... and say things in love....If your faith has not got you there then you may have to examine your walk.

As you judge so will you be judged. You might to think about judging others’ character. What they say is fair game. Their character is not. Let’s see if Runmy~ is gentle…

 

[Runmyramble]

Oh I did not understand the purpose of why she posted those passages...but now I see.

Dorothy Mae
Everything has order...You see if you have come to be revealed by God that Jesus is the son of the living God. THIS IS THE FOUNDATION WHICH JESUS SAID HE WOULD BUILD HIS CHURCH. (In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth) that passage came to me so I thought I better type it down.

Everything starts with God, ends with God an in the middle done with God.

Everything is created by Him, through Him and For Him....

In the beginning according to John 1:1
was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

So our foundation is GOD...For it seems God is His word.

OUR FAITH WORKS BY LOVE...MEANING BEHIND WHAT WE DO THE MOTIVE WILL BE LOVE. FOR God is Love....I will finish later if I must. But peace to you...

You must see Dorothy Mae that One receives the Spirit when Christ is preached. When? Idk...it could be after they trusted in the son of the living God as their king/Lord/teacher/God.

Eph 1:13 I believe can be the reference..
Who and where [5w's] is the Gospel of their salvation. Sealed in Christ-marked in Christ

The Gospel is the Kingdom is available to anyone who has confidence in Jesus.
HIs Kingdom Is the rule of God, where what God wants done is done.

So if God command, preached by John was repent and believe the Kingdom is available by the name of Jesus. And people obey that good news through belief/trust or a hearty confidence.

Then wouldn't one comes under God's Will/rule.
Because they were obedient to the command of God brought through John.



Salvation-deliverer
Saved-delivered

So receiving the Spirit is important because in the middle, our lives here on earth it is what we do with Christ(the hope of glory) in us that does save us also.

There are many things a person can be saved from......

Yet one thing we know it will not be without God's intervention.

He made known His ways to Moses and his acts to the children of Israel.

As He does through Christ. He reveals His son to us. And his acts by Christ.

So back to where I was, one can be saved from the penalty of sin...but Jesus is the source.

One can be saved from the guilt of sin.

One can be saved from themselves

One can be saved from doing actual sins
In their life.

One can be saved from the anger of man

But Jesus/God is in the beginning, middle, and end of it all...

That will be in my next talk...if time allows
Dorothy Mae

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not a question of what Roger wants at all, although Roger does most definitely likes that God in His mercy and grace did it that way. The verses that I posted yesterday weren't of me, they were directly from the Bible, written by God.
Did you actually read those? If so, then why don't you address the error in them if you disagree with them so that we all can learn?
And yes, there are no strings attached for the receiving of salvation besides that God had chosen someone for salvation.
Isn't it fully within His prerogative and good pleasure as God to do exactly that? If not, why? He gives physical life to whom He chose to, cannot He not more-so do the same with spiritual life?

I read those as well as all of the Bible. Did you?

 

[Runmyramble]

As you judge so will you be judged. You might to think about judging others’ character. What they say is fair game. Their character is not. Let’s see if Runmy~ is gentle…

I am not judging you to hell....but your words of attack...are your words. They didn't make me feel welcomed. For I just can't see what I said to have you respond unkindly.



...Yes as a believer I would welcome your admonishment to correct me in love....

But you are so willing to fight...that look at your response

Lord Help my sister and I to act in Love...amen

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am not judging you to hell....but your words of attack...are your words.

No, you said I was ungentle. That’s attacking me personally. I challenged your post or thinking. That’s not you. And uh, Jesus didn’t say as you judged people to hell so you will be judged to hell.


They didn't make me feel welcomed. For I just can't see what I said to have you respond unkindly.
I wasn’t unkind. I was direct.

...Yes as a believer I would welcome your admonishment to correct me in love....

But you are so willing to fight...that look at your response

Lord Help my sister and I to act in Love...amen

lord, help this poster not to judge me.

 

[Runmyramble]

No, you said I was ungentle. That’s attacking me personally. I challenged your post or thinking. That’s not you. And uh, Jesus didn’t say as you judged people to hell so you will be judged to hell.


They didn't make me feel welcomed. For I just can't see what I said to have you respond unkindly.
I wasn’t unkind. I was direct.

lord, help this poster not to judge me.

What I am saying is...there is a human being on the other side ...that receives your words as combative.......

Why because that's what they were.
To judge you is to sentence you to hell.
Or stone you...etc.

I have no need to judge you...they were your words.

 

[rogerg]

I read those as well as all of the Bible. Did you?

Of course. What is your point?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course. What is your point?

Do you admit that despite being predestined, if you don’t forgive others you won’t be forgiven?

 

[rogerg]

I will finish later if I must. But peace to you...

OUR FAITH WORKS BY LOVE...MEANING BEHIND WHAT WE DO THE MOTIVE WILL BE LOVE. FOR God is Love....I will finish later if I must. But peace to you...

As I recall, the discussion was regarding salvation solely by grace, not by works. The Bible informs, that those
who have become saved exhibit the attributes described in the Bible because they have been saved, not to become saved.
If you see it otherwise, and have something to add, then, yes, finish it later. If not, that's okay too - up to you

 

[rogerg]

Do you admit that despite being predestined, if you don’t forgive others you won’t be forgiven?

What do you think the Bible's definition of forgiveness is? What is to be forgiven?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I am saying is...there is a human being on the other side ...that receives your words as combative.......

There’s a human on the other side of your words who sees them as a character (personal attack.)

Why because that's what they were.

That’s because that’s what they are, right from a judging attitude.

To judge you is to sentence you to hell.
Or stone you...etc.

No, that’s not what Jesus said. He says the measure by which you measure others will be applied yo
you.

I have no need to judge you...they were your words.

You have no need to judge but apparently felt you did. That was quite ungentle of you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What do you think the Bible's definition of forgiveness is? What is to be forgiven?

I asked you.

 

[rogerg]

I asked you.

Okay, answer: no, if they forgive (according to the explanation that I provided), then by that they have must have already been forgiven in order for them to do so. Those who do not forgive according to that explanation, do not, because they have not been forgiven. Neither would they ever be able to do so until they're forgiven, at which time they will.

 

[Runmyramble]

No, you said I was ungentle. That’s attacking me personally. I challenged your post or thinking. That’s not you. And uh, Jesus didn’t say as you judged people to hell so you will be judged to hell.


They didn't make me feel welcomed. For I just can't see what I said to have you respond unkindly.
I wasn’t unkind. I was direct.

lord, help this poster not to judge me.

Read this...and maybe it will help you understand judging...

WE

As I recall, the discussion was regarding salvation solely by grace, not by works. The Bible informs, that those
who have become saved exhibit the attributes described in the Bible because they have been saved, not to become saved.
If you see it otherwise, and have something to add, then, yes, finish it later. If not, that's okay too - up to you

Well there is a lot to tangle when things have been tangled.

And I've made points that
Salvation can mean deliverer, or deliverence too
Saved- delivered.

But yes salvation is through grace...
God made away for us to be delivered by His Son which is our salvation(deliverence)



Many have been saved from being dead in sin to being made alive together with Christ...EPHESIANS 2



They were saved...they could not quicken themself to life...because they are dead.
Therefore that is how they were saved.

But now that they have received the Spirit...

Their lives can be changed and they can be saved from more, including circumstances in this current world, when by the "Spirit" they put away the deeds of their flesh.

Grace is unmerited, unearned favor -God doing what we cannot do on our own.

When someone does a favor that does not always mean their is no effort on the receivers part.

As an Example my sister does me a favor to watch our children. But the effort on my part is to get them ready, prepare extra clothes, put them in their car seats,
Start the car, drive to her house(and more)..all this before she finally does her favor.

What puts us in the presence of God....is the source God provided us. His living word, Jesus.....And we did nothing for Jesus to die for our sins and rise....This was the work of God and Jesus.

God's gift to us is His son, who lives forever to INTERCEED on the behalf of those who come to Him.

Jesus Spirit lives in us....He is our salvation-deliverer ....and when we obey...we are in a place to be delivered in times of trouble.

Therefore salvation-the deliverer is Jesus.....And having received His Spirit we have been saved by being made alive(that's the grace)

Once we are alive we still must live...and we grow in grace living by the Spirit and not our flesh.....The growing is salvaic as well. Because our growth is how we relate to God in Christ.

As Willard put it grace is not opposed to effort but to earning.

For earning brings about boasting...
But scripture says who has given to God that He shall repay Him.

 

[Runmyramble]

There’s a human on the other side of your words who sees them as a character (personal attack.)

That’s because that’s what they are, right from a judging attitude.

No, that’s not what Jesus said. He says the measure by which you measure others will be applied yo
you.

You have no need to judge but apparently felt you did. That was quite ungentle of you.

I have no need to judge you to Hell...if you are unkind that is just what it is...you being unkind...

I'm done with this...lol Gee...we really missed the Mark on what it means to judge...I guess no one should correct their children when they talk down at others. Hey but if you think that is the judging God is talking about so be it to your understanding.
Relevant Bible Teaching - Judge with Righteous Judgment

Relevant Bible Teaching - Judge with Righteous Judgment

Relevant Bible Teaching is the online Bible teaching ministry of Brent Barnett, featuring his books, commentaries, devotionals, and more.

www.relevantbibleteaching.com

 

[rogerg]

When someone does a favor that does not always mean their is no effort on the receivers part.

Human analogies don't work with the Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-
He alone is the Saviour. None of your "sister" example holds true for the Bible. When someone becomes saved
it is that, in one moment they weren't save, and in next moment they are - no preparation needed or permitted - God does it at a time of His choosing. After salvation, we learn and grow from becoming familiar with what the gospel informs us of, but that happens AFTER the fact, it does not lead to it. Before salvation it is not possible to truly comprehend the gospel or believe in it: salvation is first, and singularly, a change to our spirit, not to our intellect -
intellect follows afterwards.

 

[Runmyramble]

Human analogies don't work with the Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-
He alone is the Saviour. None of your "sister" example holds true for the Bible. When someone becomes saved
it is that, in one moment they weren't save, and in next moment they are - no preparation needed or permitted - God does it at a time of His choosing. After salvation, we learn and grow from becoming familiar with what the gospel informs us of, but that happens AFTER the fact, it does not lead to it. Before salvation it is not possible to truly comprehend the gospel or believe in it: salvation is first, and singularly, a change to our spirit, not to our intellect -
intellect follows afterwards.

Human analogies don't work with the Bible

Of course they do..not only that but God used Israel to show us many examples.
What other analogy would one use...if they must see the physical in order to relate to the spiritual....You and many others may not want to accept truth because you have your own but that does not stop the truth from being the truth. Analogies are used all through out the Bible and they are about humans.

Here is one off the bat: John 3:14
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up"

Here is another off the second batter: Matthew 24:38
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

So to say one cannot use an analogy because it does not fit with how you view grace is....your intellect

 

[Runmyramble]

Human analogies don't work with the Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-
He alone is the Saviour. None of your "sister" example holds true for the Bible. When someone becomes saved
it is that, in one moment they weren't save, and in next moment they are - no preparation needed or permitted - God does it at a time of His choosing. After salvation, we learn and grow from becoming familiar with what the gospel informs us of, but that happens AFTER the fact, it does not lead to it. Before salvation it is not possible to truly comprehend the gospel or believe in it: salvation is first, and singularly, a change to our spirit, not to our intellect -
intellect follows afterwards.

Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-

who told you information is without condition? Do not you need to have a brain to receive it? Then it's not unconditionally.

Salvation as I've said and explained is God's work. He died, not you or I,
He raised from the dead not you or I...

As the Ark was salvation...Jesus is our Salvation

Alone the Ark saved No one, yet it was Noah's Salvation.

Think for a minute of that ark built with no one in it. Was it still Noah's Salvation from the flood?

But now Noah is in the ark and the flood has came, so it will save Him from the wrath........

But was it not preached also to many others? Yes....and was it also their salvation? Yes

But why did it not save them? Because they did not make themselves ready, they were concerned about other things...And when the flood came they did not get in the ark.

God gave grace to Noah
He told Him to build an Ark that would eventually save Him and His family.

Did Noah Put effort in? Yes He built the ark....so grace is not, as said before, opposed to effort, however it is opposed to earning.

Did Noah do anything that would save Him?

So then what does this scripture mean in the context. Does it say a person puts no effort in? Does it say that obedience to God's commands are not neccessary ?

Let's see:Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does this scripture say it's not by any effort on our part? Or any works of righteousness ?......

Then the second part is important too
"....but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy ghost.

Meaning they were saved by what God did
But they had to obey/believe.

THE WASHING OF REGENERATION TO ME MEANS JESUS DYING FOR THE PENALTY OF SIN. REMOVING SIN BY HIS DEATH. IN ORDER TO GIVE US HIS SPIRIT WHEREBY WE COME ALIVE...but I'm still learning here...

 

[rogerg]

Of course they do..not only that but God used Israel to show us many examples.
What other analogy would one use...if they must see the physical in order to relate to the spiritual....You and many others may not want to accept truth because you have your own but that does not stop the truth from being the truth. Analogies are used all through out the Bible and they are about humans.

Sure, when they're in the Bible, but no, not when they're about your sister. God's analogies alone have merit, any derived by you or by man, do not - we're not allowed to just make them up as we go along just because we think they might be applicable.
Besides that, I don't know what you're referring to, but we know that Christ brought in a new priesthood, and with it, new laws, replacing and invalidating the old. See the following:

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The new covenant and new law are Christ.