Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-

who told you information is without condition? Do not you need to have a brain to receive it? Then it's not unconditionally.

Ah, no. If God wants someone to receive it, then they will receive it, but information is not what saves
(not sure how you're using the word "information" - what does it to represent?)
And what I said in my prior post is that there is but one condition alone that matters- that God has chosen that person for salvation. Nothing they can do can cause it, nor can stop it.
I read the remainder of your post, and not to be rude, but in it, you've chosen to apply a determination of
your own making as to what the verses mean, instead of using the Bible for that. So, as I do not really feel
energetic enough at this moment to go through and untangle it, I'll pass on further comment for now.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure, when they're in the Bible, but no, not when they're about your sister. God's analogies alone have merit, any derived by you or by man, do not - we're not allowed to just make them up as we go along just because we think they might be applicable.
Besides that, I don't know what you're referring to, but we know that Christ brought in a new priesthood, and with it, new laws, replacing and invalidating the old. See the following:

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The new covenant and new law are Christ.

The Laws were put into out heart.
They were not abolished.
Matthew 5:17

 

[rogerg]

The Laws were put into out heart.
They were not abolished.
Matthew 5:17

Law of Christ:
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[jaybo]

The Laws were put into out heart.
They were not abolished.
Matthew 5:17

Matthew 5, a.k.a., the sermon on the mount, was spoken to unsaved people. Once Jesus was sacrificed and the New Covenant was put into place, the OT law has no effect on people who are saved.

Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace."
Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

 

[GodsGrace]

Law of Christ:
[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Then we have a very serious contradiction
Here.

Unless the law of sin and death means something different than what it sounds like.

Roman's 6:15

Further discussion must wait. Midnight here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 5, a.k.a., the sermon on the mount, was spoken to unsaved people. Once Jesus was sacrificed and the New Covenant was put into place, the OT law has no effect on people who are saved.

Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace."
Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

Jaybo,
In your post you state exactly what the difference is.

The law of sin and death...

The sin nature we had before controlled us.
If was difficult to try to keep the OT Law.

The Law of Christ is that we are now controlled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not our sin nature or concupiscense.

We are still required to obey God's commands..
Bit now we have the power to do so.


rogerg

 

[jaybo]

Jaybo,
In your post you state exactly what the difference is.

The law of sin and death...

The sin nature we had before controlled us.
If was difficult to try to keep the OT Law.

The Law of Christ is that we are now controlled by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not our sin nature oryou are not qualified or capable of giving a Biblical explanation

We are still required to obey God's commands..
Bit now we have the power to do so.


rogerg

We have the power to do so because we have the Holy Spirit living within us. What does the OT law say about watching television or driving the speed limit? The Holy Sprit is our indwelling guide to living. The OT law doesn't apply, unless you're interested in killing animals to appease God.

 

[GodsGrace]

We have the power to do so because we have the Holy Spirit living within us. What does the OT law say about watching television or driving the speed limit? The Holy Sprit is our indwelling guide to living. The OT law doesn't apply, unless you're interested in killing animals to appease God.

So it's ok to have idols, take the name of God in vain, adultery, stealing, murder, envy, mistreating parents,,,,and more.

The Holy Spirit is our guide.
Before there was faith but no indwelling

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, no. If God wants someone to receive it, then they will receive it, but information is not what saves
(not sure how you're using the word "information" - what does it to represent?)
And what I said in my prior post is that there is but one condition alone that matters- that God has chosen that person for salvation. Nothing they can do can cause it, nor can stop it.
I read the remainder of your post, and not to be rude, but in it, you've chosen to apply a determination of
your own making as to what the verses mean, instead of using the Bible for that. So, as I do not really feel
energetic enough at this moment to go through and untangle it, I'll pass on further comment for now.

Again...
God sets the conditions for salvation...

He does not CHOOSE who will be saved unconditionally.

You're falling into Calvinism again.

 

[rogerg]

Again...
God sets the conditions for salvation...

He does not CHOOSE who will be saved unconditionally.

You're falling into Calvinism again.

Wrong! Geez, wondering, how many times do I need to post these verses for you before you get them, or do you just refuse to accept them because they go against your church's teachings? I'll try it again. I don't know how they could be any clearer than they are. Please, actually read and think about them this time.

[Eph 1:4-5 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[jaybo]

So it's ok to have idols, take the name of God in vain, adultery, stealing, murder, envy, mistreating parents,,,,and more.

The Holy Spirit is our guide.
Before there was faith but no indwelling

Why are you intentionally twisting my words???

I sincerely doubt that the Holy Spirit leads us into taking the name of God in vain, adultery, stealing, murder, envy, mistreating parents, and more. That's why we don't need the (external) written law to guide our behavior.

Frankly, I'm surprised at your sarcasm and insult.

Go back to sleep. Perhaps you'll feel better in the morning and have a clearer head.

 

[rogerg]

Then we have a very serious contradiction
Here.

Unless the law of sin and death means something different than what it sounds like.

Roman's 6:15

Romans 6:16 resolves your contradiction:

[Rom 6:16 KJV] 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The sin of the law of sin and death is found in one's trust in and working for salvation and ultimately being judged for that by God. I already know what you're going to say - that it then is up to us to make that decision as to whom we obey, not God. But only those who have been saved can cease from their works in order to fully trust in Christ as Saviour and yield themselves unto righteousness and not sin: doing so gift from God from salvation. Everyone ever born into this world, is born under the law of sin and death and therefore, cannot trust in Christ.
A person cannot force themselves to believe in that which they just don't believe, nor can they force themselves not believe in that which they believe.

[Jhn 12:37, 39 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Runmyramble]

Human analogies don't work with the Bible. In it, we are unconditionally informed that it is all God's work, not ours-
He alone is the Saviour. None of your "sister" example holds true for the Bible. When someone becomes saved
it is that, in one moment they weren't save, and in next moment they are - no preparation needed or permitted - God does it at a time of His choosing. After salvation, we learn and grow from becoming familiar with what the gospel informs us of, but that happens AFTER the fact, it does not lead to it. Before salvation it is not possible to truly comprehend the gospel or believe in it: salvation is first, and singularly, a change to our spirit, not to our intellect -
intellect follows afterwards.

He alone is the Saviour. None of your "sister" example holds true for the Bible

This is true He alone is Saviour , but as written earlier about the ark, will you be saved by Him.

Think about this passage:Col 1:24

""To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the gloriouszdx riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (28) We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. (29) To this end I labour, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.'"

Looking at the above in Red I have to asked the question Christ is in Me but am I in Christ.

And what does that look like

Sure, when they're in the Bible, but no, not when they're about your sister. God's analogies alone have merit, any derived by you or by man, do not - we're not allowed to just make them up as we go along just because we think they might be applicable.
Besides that, I don't know what you're referring to, but we know that Christ brought in a new priesthood, and with it, new laws, replacing and invalidating the old. See the following:

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The new covenant and new law are Christ.

Sounds like you are making up rules...if I want to explain grace I can use an analogy to get my point across... as I did......I get it Somebody is trying to prank me...lol....

 

[Runmyramble]

Ah, no. If God wants someone to receive it, then they will receive it, but information is not what saves
(not sure how you're using the word "information" - what does it to represent?)
And what I said in my prior post is that there is but one condition alone that matters- that God has chosen that person for salvation. Nothing they can do can cause it, nor can stop it.
I read the remainder of your post, and not to be rude, but in it, you've chosen to apply a determination of
your own making as to what the verses mean, instead of using the Bible for that. So, as I do not really feel
energetic enough at this moment to go through and untangle it, I'll pass on further comment for now.

Good Ideal, for I don't have time for more of your pranks...

 

[Runmyramble]

Sure, when they're in the Bible, but no, not when they're about your sister. God's analogies alone have merit, any derived by you or by man, do not - we're not allowed to just make them up as we go along just because we think they might be applicable.
Besides that, I don't know what you're referring to, but we know that Christ brought in a new priesthood, and with it, new laws, replacing and invalidating the old. See the following:

[Heb 7:11-12 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The new covenant and new law are Christ.

Exactly...you don't know...and it's just time to ignore non sense...You reply but ...dont know what you are replying to...um, it makes more sense to ask...anyway..peace to you...time to put you on ignore this is supposed to be relaxing and insightful conversation not stressful drama for no reason.

 

[Runmyramble]

Except your view clashes with the verse that says the demons believe too. That’s no virtue with God.

Jesus told one guy he had to sell everything. He told most to
follow him. All had to give up
some aspect. “Believe” means surrender your self and believe/do all he teaches. It doesn’t mean “think he is the Christ and you’ll go to Heaven.”

No one said, think He is the Christ...but you....and belief does not mean surrender. Although it can lead there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No one said, think He is the Christ...but you....and belief does not mean surrender. Although it can lead there.

Jesus said he will say to MANY, “depart from me. I never knew you.”

 

[Runmyramble]

Jesus said he will say to MANY, “depart from me. I never knew you.”

Yes and? They had no relationship with Him. He also said in that same verse you workers of iniquity....

What's the point you are trying to make?

It doesn't say they did not know of Him.
In my opinion:

There are a lot of people who may do things in His name....but they use His name for the sake of making money...etc

But one that has been born from above
Knows God is the author of true Life, living water.

Note to myself: I never thought about it this way -that His life is His love or how He shows love.

For God is Love
He's a giver
God gave His only begotton son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes and? They had no relationship with Him. He also said in that same verse you workers of iniquity....

What's the point you are trying to make?

It doesn't say they did not know of Him.
In my opinion:

There are a lot of people who may do things in His name....but they use His name for the sake of making money...etc

But one that has been born from above
Knows God is the author of true Life, living water.

Note to myself: I never thought about it this way -that His life is His love or how He shows love

My point is it matters WHAT we believe not THAT we believe something. What those who heard “go away” believed was obviously wrong, too far wrong. I doubt making money played a role in any case, although it could be one of many wrong motives.

 

[Runmyramble]

My point is it matters WHAT we believe not THAT we believe something. What those who heard “go away” believed was obviously wrong, too far wrong. I doubt making money played a role in any case, although it could be one of many wrong motives.

Well they may have believed who He was, but not with the intent to follow.

Money is the root of all kinds of evil.
Most importantly we agree that the motive behind what we do matters.