Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Well they may have believed who He was, but not with the intent to follow.

Money is the root of all kinds of evil.
Most importantly we agree that the motive behind what we do matters.

Actually it’s the love of money, not money itself that is the root of much evil.

Otherwise could be as you describe.

 

[Runmyramble]

To believe Jesus is the son of God Carries the foretold prophecies with it.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



....



Just for heads up, when I say faith it is not mere mental asset...I believe the word took on a whole new meaning as time went by.

But the faith of Abraham and many that came before us like Him, we can see it was with intention to follow because the outcome is they followed/obeyed/believed

Note to myself: Faith in some sense may mean loyalty to God

 

[Runmyramble]

Actually it’s the love of money, not money itself that is the root of much evil.

Otherwise could be as you describe.

True..

 

[Runmyramble]

Now to the Titled Thread
Why do Christian argue works..

Because many of us have been indoctrinated through the teachings of OSAS and not the foundation in which Christ church is to be built. "JESUS" the son of the living God.

Many of us were evangelized as our foundation to believe what He did to secure us heaven when we physically die.

But that is part of the Gospel, for in the first chapter of Mark we find Jesus preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God after John, I believe was in prison.

But if we were taught the full Gospel it may look like this: The kingdom of God is available to any one who puts their trust in Jesus.

Why should we trust this Man because God did all the miracles through Him and He fullfills scriptures of Old, And He died for the penalty of sin and Rose again for our justification and was seen by many (And more)...Gee and if He defeated death then He is definitely one to look to for everything concerning this life and the next.

Therefore if we trust Him for who He is-the son of the living God..(meaning He is in controll of all things)
We will see/know our sins are continually being forgiven. Because there will be no guilt....This is a testimony from many who are loyal to Him.


Part 2 coming

 

[jaybo]

This is true He alone is Saviour , but as written earlier about the ark, will you be saved by Him.

Think about this passage:Col 1:24

""To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the gloriouszdx riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (28) We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. (29) To this end I labour, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.'"

Looking at the above in Red I have to asked the question Christ is in Me but am I in Christ.

And what does that look like

Sounds like you are making up rules...if I want to explain grace I can use an analogy to get my point across... as I did......I get it Somebody is trying to prank me...lol....

The answer to your question is the Holy Spirit. A Christian is part of the body of Christ, and Christ lives in her/him via the Holy Spirit. Profound. Difficult to understand (for some).

 

[Runmyramble]

The answer to your question is the Holy Spirit. A Christian is part of the body of Christ, and Christ lives in her/him via the Holy Spirit. Profound. Difficult to understand (for some).

Hi, not really ....but it's if you by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

 

[Runmyramble]

Hi, not really ....but it's if you by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

Here is the Question Christ is in you but are you in Christ....What does that look like for one to be in Christ?

My answer definitely Glorifying God...Holding up His name.

For: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"

1 John1:7

 

[Runmyramble]

Also it look like:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Now to the Titled Thread
Why do Christian argue works..

Because many of us have been indoctrinated through the teachings of OSAS and not the foundation in which Christ church is to be built. "JESUS" the son of the living God.

Many of us were evangelized as our foundation to believe what He did to secure us heaven when we physically die.

But that is part of the Gospel, for in the first chapter of Mark we find Jesus preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God after John, I believe was in prison.

But if we were taught the full Gospel it may look like this: The kingdom of God is available to any one who puts their trust in Jesus.

Why should we trust this Man because God did all the miracles through Him and He fullfills scriptures of Old, And He died for the penalty of sin and Rose again for our justification and was seen by many (And more)...Gee and if He defeated death then He is definitely one to look to for everything concerning this life and the next.

Therefore if we trust Him for who He is-the son of the living God..(meaning He is in controll of all things)
We will see/know our sins are continually being forgiven. Because there will be no guilt....This is a testimony from many who are loyal to Him.


Part 2 coming

If we fail to forgive those who sin against us, are our sins nevertheless continually forgiven?

 

[Runmyramble]

Now to the Titled Thread
Why do Christian argue works..

Because many of us have been indoctrinated through the teachings of OSAS and not the foundation in which Christ church is to be built. "JESUS" the son of the living God.

Many of us were evangelized as our foundation to believe what He did to secure us heaven when we physically die.

But that is part of the Gospel, for in the first chapter of Mark we find Jesus preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God after John, I believe was in prison.

But if we were taught the full Gospel it may look like this: The kingdom of God is available to any one who puts their trust in Jesus.

Why should we trust this Man because God did all the miracles through Him and He fullfills scriptures of Old, And He died for the penalty of sin and Rose again for our justification and was seen by many (And more)...Gee and if He defeated death then He is definitely one to look to for everything concerning this life and the next.

Therefore if we trust Him for who He is-the son of the living God..(meaning He is in controll of all things)
We will see/know our sins are continually being forgiven. Because there will be no guilt....This is a testimony from many who are loyal to Him.


Part 2 coming

To continue the Foundation must be Jesus-the son of the living God

If not, for many, this is how the outcome of believing something He did to secure your salvation may look.

Coldness, boasting, no change of heart,
No growth, still living in sin....etc

Why? Because Salvation-being delivered
Is not just about receiving heaven when you die; But about life that begins now (the eternal quality of life). Meaning because Christ Lives we can live by the power of His resurrected life....It's quite like saying getting heaven in us now.

And it is parallel to Israel life on earth...
God would fight their battles when they trusted/obeyed Him.

So Jesus comes as was planned to usher in the Covenant made to Abraham before the Law. He dies for those condemned under the law by His physical flesh, to redeem them...where all jews and Gentile would be counted under sin. Now He can be Lord over all who put their trust in Him.

Anyway back to the previous paragraph
Those shadows under the law about the tabernacle and veil...express how we too must first be forgiven through the blood of Jesus to be able to enter the father's presence on earth. Therefore Life can begin now...and one of it's starts is Trusting who God said And revealed His son was/is with intent to follow....

So part of the Gospel we hear when evangelized..is that Jesus Died and arose...and if you believe this you have heaven....

But that puts the cart before the horse-where for many the human heart is not being transformed into the image of Christ

But putting the horse before the cart there is movement and spiritual growth.

I mean the cart before the horse is like
A person who uses someone for what they can get without getting to know them.

And God wants to be known....
So the Horse before the cart Is first Belief in who He is...with intention of following and being dicipled.

Start and continue there and watch God fullfill is promises.

Part 3 coming

If we fail to forgive those who sin against us, are our sins nevertheless continually forgiven?

Hi Dorthy first I was going to say what does this have to do with anything...But a glimpse of your thinking came to me.....What you are saying Is work is involved. Well first I have not read the full passage recently.
And sense I have not I can look at it 2 ways...one way may be right...depending on Who He is Speaking to Christian or non Christian....As a believer who God has graciously awaken we must continue in Him after being awaken/regenerated. Therefore salvation is ongoing and we are told to remain in His Love. Salvation the way I see it is a life with Christ...as Willard said, it is participating in what Christ, the one who is in you, is now doing on earth.

God wants to save the whole body, soul, and Spirit.....In a sense the grace He gives allows us to get back up if we sin; miss the mark.

Another words as one youtube teacher put it, He wants to get the Hell out of us.
That comes by obeying His Spirit and not our own will if it is in alignment with His. As you said "surrendering" our life daily to Him...

Sounds like kingdom language- paying allegiance to God.

 

[Runmyramble]

What may need to be pointed out again..
Is the Ideal that one can be saved only once. We are not only saved by being reconciled to God by His death......We are saved when we continually live by His life.....
And we can be saved from many things...As an example

There is a medicine that totally hurt some people.......and people are on their death bed about to perish unto death if they continued dying..But God stepped in and told them to stop taking it...and therefore they lived. Later Mars was destroyed where they got particles to make this medicine. And the people obeyed and destroyed all this medicine they had left.

So one of those people may never be saved from the use of this medicine again because it wont exist ever again to destroy them.

However God healed one of the same people of broken legg with cancer and saved them from cancer spreading...etc

Or God reconciled that same person and their mother...

Or God gave one of those people a Job when they had no where to go and nothing to eat...
So we can be saved from many things..
As Abraham was without a son...and God gave Him one...

You see salvation is not Just being saved to have heaven when one dies but being saved from things concerning our present circumstances on earth.




Dorothy Mae

 

[jaybo]

What may need to be pointed out again..
Is the Ideal that one can be saved only once. We are not only saved by being reconciled to God by His death......We are saved when we continually live by His life.....
And we can be saved from many things...As an example

There is a medicine that totally hurt some people.......and people are on their death bed about to perish unto death if they continued dying..But God stepped in and told them to stop taking it...and therefore they lived. Later Mars was destroyed where they got particles to make this medicine. And the people obeyed and destroyed all this medicine they had left.

So one of those people may never be saved from the use of this medicine again because it wont exist ever again to destroy them.

However God healed one of the same people of broken legg with cancer and saved them from cancer spreading...etc

Or God reconciled that same person and their mother...

Or God gave one of those people a Job when they had no where to go and nothing to eat...
So we can be saved from many things..
As Abraham was without a son...and God gave Him one...

You see salvation is not Just being saved to have heaven when one dies but being saved from things concerning our present circumstances on earth.




Dorothy Mae

You wrote "We are not only saved by being reconciled to God by His death......We are saved when we continually live by His life....."

We are saved by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more that needs to be done.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." God gave us a gift; there are no conditions, otherwise it's earned (and not a free gift).

 

[D-D-W]

That is a very very good ideal in deed...
Greek

Yes, but Hebrew would be even better since the authors were all fluent Hebrew/Aramaic speakers.

 

[D-D-W]

We only have one job to do and that is to spread the Gospel. And what is the Gospel? The LOVE that the Father sent in the form of HIS son. I agree with what Paul says!

That is a vast oversimplification. We all have various tasks to do. Yes we are to spread to the Gospel. But we are also to lay down our lives, grow in character and knowledge, find our place in His Kingdom and do what ever tasks await us there.

We are not all called to BE evangelists, but we can do the work of evangelism small scale in our lives.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Works do not effect salvation? Isn't all related....

What is the Salvation you speak?

True. It's called things that accompany salvation.

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Heb 6)

It is no coincidence, that those separating salvation from doing righteousness, are always the same who justify their sinning, and never preach righteousness.

They are only talk about becoming more neighborly sinners.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The only reason that those who do that "come up with something completely different," is because no translation is ever adequate to truly convey what is said in the original. You are taking a translation as being the bottom line when it clearly is not.

Muslims say the same thing about the Koran. It's called scholarship pride.

What conveyance am I missing about, the Word was God? And yet certain greek scholars say the word was a god. And no, I don't need other greek scholars to argue against it for me. I am being saved and justified by believing and doing His word as written, not by waiting to see which greek scholar sounds better and then doing that.

When Jesus says to come to Him as a little child, which is English for, come to Him as a little child, He is telling the adults of conveyance to drop all their learned imaginations and just read what He sim[ply says and do it.

God does not limit the truth of His salvation to greek and hebrew. That was the favorite tool of the Catholic dominion by Latin.

He that is committing sin with the devil, is of the devil, and not born of God, not while committing sin with the devil.

Present sinning is not forgiven, nor is the one presently sinning saved.

I get that from the king's english, and no amount of the king's greek and hebrew horseman can change the simple understanding of it. They can however convey it into, only if it is twice or thrice, then it is of the devil.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I laughed at this one. So true. I got a picture of a scene in the original Toy Story where those identical space toys encountered something and all simultaneously said, “ahhhhh” in great reverence and respect. That’s how we are to respond when a Greek word is dissected before us…

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

When we learn to read the hebrew in order to be better saved, do we also need head covers and candles?

This kind of proud thinking also goes on to needing to become manuscript scholars, so that even greek and hebrew verses can be changed or done away with entirely.

When I see some long dissertation about how the greek conveys the word was a god. I don't even blink, but just move on, and say, nope. The word was God.

Like Queen Isabella arguing with Columbus, they take out their greek and hebrew hammers to beat translated Scripture into submission of their own doctrine "The world, she's a round!" Whack! "No, she's a flat like your head!"

 

[RBDERRICK]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation.

Aspects of salvation?

No doubt this has to do with being saved, while no having fellowship because of sinning.

It's called being saved from afar.

 

[Runmyramble]

We are told

You wrote "We are not only saved by being reconciled to God by His death......We are saved when we continually live by His life....."



Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." God gave us a gift; there are no conditions, otherwise it's earned (and not a free gift).

If you read the whole passage...you will see what they were saved from.....they were dead in sin and made alive together with Christ...

Therefore they were saved from being dead...

You said: We are saved by believing in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more that needs to be done.
actually what I said is written


That's not what this scripture states:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Roman's 5:10

Or what this scripture states:

Now to the Titled Thread
Why do Christian argue works..

Because many of us have been indoctrinated through the teachings of OSAS and not the foundation in which Christ church is to be built. "JESUS" the son of the living God.

Many of us were evangelized as our foundation to believe what He did to secure us heaven when we physically die.

But that is part of the Gospel, for in the first chapter of Mark we find Jesus preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God after John, I believe was in prison.

But if we were taught the full Gospel it may look like this: The kingdom of God is available to any one who puts their trust in Jesus.

Why should we trust this Man because God did all the miracles through Him and He fullfills scriptures of Old, And He died for the penalty of sin and Rose again for our justification and was seen by many (And more)...Gee and if He defeated death then He is definitely one to look to for everything concerning this life and the next.

Therefore if we trust Him for who He is-the son of the living God..(meaning He is in controll of all things)
We will see/know our sins are continually being forgiven. Because there will be no guilt....This is a testimony from many who are loyal to Him.


Part 2 coming

Part 3
Why Christian argue against works...
So I already touched on the foundation in which many who are against works have been evangelized.

That foundation I said was part of the Gospel....not all of it.

And that foundation is Believe Jesus died was buried and arose from the dead and you have heaven when you die. (Foundation 1), (f1)

Many have not put their confidence in Jesus for who He is with intent to follow. (Foundation 2),(f2)

It is Jesus the son of the living God that is the foundation. Not what He did, although that is equally important .

When many people hear foundation 1...it comes out like this -Jesus did it all so we do nothing.

But when you Read Eph 1:13 you find it was after they listened to the Gospel of truth and having trusted they were sealed.

Well first what is the Gospel they heard?
I have to go back and read to get a reference for you...but I Suspect



But many may not come to understand until they hear the full gospel.

Muslims say the same thing about the Koran. It's called scholarship pride.

What conveyance am I missing about, the Word was God? And yet certain greek scholars say the word was a god. And no, I don't need other greek scholars to argue against it for me. I am being saved and justified by believing and doing His word as written, not by waiting to see which greek scholar sounds better and then doing that.

When Jesus says to come to Him as a little child, which is English for, come to Him as a little child, He is telling the adults of conveyance to drop all their learned imaginations and just read what He sim[ply says and do it.

God does not limit the truth of His salvation to greek and hebrew. That was the favorite tool of the Catholic dominion by Latin.

He that is committing sin with the devil, is of the devil, and not born of God, not while committing sin with the devil.

Present sinning is not forgiven, nor is the one presently sinning saved.

I get that from the king's english, and no amount of the king's greek and hebrew horseman can change the simple understanding of it. They can however convey it into, only if it is twice or thrice, then it is of the devil.

There is some truth to both...

 

[Runmyramble]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation.

Aspects of salvation?

No doubt this has to do with being saved, while no having fellowship because of sinning.

It's called being saved from afar.

Works do .....because there are good works and bad works....
(Go away from me you workers of iniquity)

Also you don't "know" what you have until you walk in it. And we find the def of eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ who He has sent. There is a passage that says, I write these things so that you may know you have life, and that life is in the son.

Point being is the reason He saved us...to be a light by destroying the works of the Devil living by the Spirit.

But here is a scripture that should be thought aboutone can google it)
The will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

Now what good would it be to have the son in you and not know? When eternal life is to know the father and the son?

What benifit will you have and how will that serve the Kingdom?

And if it is true that you believed Jesus did something for you so you can have heaven when you die, and you came alive by that teaching[were born again] and you never obeyed the Spirit how in the world would that meet God's purpose for why He saved you?

So it does really beg the question: have you received the Spirit when you believed?

Believed what? Believed Jesus did it all so you do nothing.

Or believed Jesus is the son of the living God with intent to following Him?

The problem is not knowing the full gospel...And listen to how disciples(learners-followers) are made: Go and make disciples (again dont quote me but look this up for I'm on my phone typing this).......How are they to go make disciples(learners, followers of Christ)? Teach them to do do do do
All that I command.....baptizing them(immersing as Willard says in the presence of the Holy trinity) in the name of the F,S, and Holy G and low I will be with with with you until the end of the age.

Anyway I'll stop here...because this I hope gives one truly seeking something to think about.




Salvation it's self- can mean the life of Christ.
As He is our deliverer, as the ark was Noah's deliverence.

The ark would not have saved no one from present circumstances if they did not get in it... (obey)

And there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but live by the Spirit.

The issue again is the cart before the horse...as mentioned earlier..

God saved us so that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world....

Saved us from what? Well Ephesian said we were dead in trespasses and Sin,
But made alive together with Christ...

Why? In my view so we are able to learn how to walk with God....to live in His presence (as I give them eternal life)

It is through this life, His life We are a light to the world..

The scriptures points out, if you love me you will keep my commands(teachings)and the father and I will come in and make our abode. with you, or sup with you. (don't quote me but look it up)