A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[brightfame52]

They have a choice ... but 100.00% choose to believe.... just like reprobates have a choice and 100.00% choose not to believe

Choice: The power, right, or liberty to choose; option.

No you have no choice when God draws you, His choice of you prevails. As for the reprobates, they had no choice, God made them according to His Purpose Vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9

 

[brightfame52]

Man by nature is so totally depraved he cannot come to Christ without the Father Drawing him, man's coming to Christ is exclusively the result of God's Drawing him. This Drawing is done supernaturally by the power of the Holy Spirit sanctifying this person, in the New Birth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the Drawing is another way of saying the sanctification of the Spirit which results in belief of the Truth

 

[Fastfredy0]

No you have no choice when God draws you, His choice of you prevails.

Maybe semantics ... I agree that God chooses and this causes 100.00% us to choose as He chose. It get down to what is the definition of CHOOSE.

Choose Definition: To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

So, those God chooses choose (select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out). It is OUR faith that saves us, not GOD'S FAITH (aside: God does not have faith at all). It is our choice, our selection. The fact that 100% of those who God chooses choose to belief doesn't change the meaning of CHOICE.
If we don't choose, then God must be forcing (force is power made operative against resistance; exertion) us to believe. We desire to follow God and thus it is a choice. If God regenerates us and we don't choose, then God is FORCING us.

As for the reprobates, they had no choice, God made them according to His Purpose Vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9

The reprobates also have a choice. God does not FORCE them. Same logic as above.
The root of our disagreement is the definition of CHOICE. I used a dictionary.

 

[brightfame52]

fast freddy

Maybe semantics ... I agree that God chooses and this causes 100.00% us to choose as He chose. It get down to what is the definition of CHOOSE.

Choose Definition: To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.

So, those God chooses choose (select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out). It is OUR faith that saves us, not GOD'S FAITH (aside: God does not have faith at all). It is our choice, our selection. The fact that 100% of those who God chooses choose to belief doesn't change the meaning of CHOICE.
If we don't choose, then God must be forcing (force is power made operative against resistance; exertion) us to believe. We desire to follow God and thus it is a choice. If God regenerates us and we don't choose, then God is FORCING us.

When God draws a person He regenerates them, gives them a new spirit and new heart for the things of the Spirit of God, and that causes the drawn one to be willing in the day of Gods Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[Gods elect] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

See its the new born babe in Christ that is being lovingly drawn by cords of everlasting love and power.

The reprobates also have a choice. God does not FORCE them. Same logic as above.
The root of our disagreement is the definition of CHOICE. I used a dictionary.

They have only one choice and thats to be at enmity against God, and to love darkness rather than light. You think the unregenerate reprobate can choose not to be a slave to sin, to choose to not love darkness rather than light ? If you do, you put a lot of stock in the spiritual ability of a dead sinner.

 

[Fastfredy0]

When God draws a person He regenerates them, gives them a new spirit and new heart for the things of the Spirit of God, and that causes the drawn one to be willing in the day of Gods Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people[Gods elect] shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

See its the new born babe in Christ that is being lovingly drawn by cords of everlasting love and power.

I agree. But the crux of your previous post was that people don't have a choice when it comes to salvation which I disagree with. They have a choice, said choice is the effect of God's choice.

They have only one choice and thats to be at enmity against God, and to love darkness rather than light. You think the unregenerate reprobate can choose not to be a slave to sin, to choose to not love darkness rather than light ? If you do, you put a lot of stock in the spiritual ability of a dead sinner.

I don't think you understand the meaning of choice. Just because 100% freely choose X over Y does not mean they don't have a choice by definition. I can offer 10,000 people a choice between a winning lottery ticket paying $1 and another paying $1,000,000 and 100% of them will freely choose the $1,000,00 ticket. The reprobates love darkness so much that 100.00% choose it.

Choice - The power, right, or liberty to choose; option. ..... No one is forcing them to believe and not believe salvificly and therefore by definition it is a "choice".

Because God chooses us, we freely choose Him
or
because God did not choose us we freely choose darkness

 

[JLB]

Man by nature is so totally depraved he cannot come to Christ without the Father Drawing him, man's coming to Christ is exclusively the result of God's Drawing him. This Drawing is done supernaturally by the power of the Holy Spirit sanctifying this person, in the New Birth 2 Thess 2:13

No such thing as being born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ.

Otherwise your claim is a "Christ-less" salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Only those who hear and believe are saved.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

No such thing as being born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Jesus Christ. Otherwise your claim is a "Christ-less" salvation.

Not according to at least three people representing this forum. By your definition they claim there is a "Christ-less" salvation. wondering just the other day said Muslim's can be saved without knowing Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not according to at least three people representing this forum. By your definition they claim there is a "Christ-less" salvation. wondering just the other day said Muslim's can be saved without knowing Christ.

You must either properly represent what I state and believe,
or you should keep yourself quiet and stop misrepresenting what people believe.

You must apparently believe that heaven will be void of anyone except the reformed because many of the reformed believe THEY are the only ones who will be saved.

Heaven does not belong only to whom YOU THINK, but to those that God chooses.
And, lo and behold, God has a REASON for choosing who will be saved, unlike the reformed that believe
we cannot know the reason He chooses some and not others...it's a secret, as stated in the WCF.

When speaking to JLB , please address JLB.
He's not interested in what others believe, but what YOU believe.

TOS 1.4
DO NOT MISQUOTE OR MISREPRESENT ANOTHER MEMBER....

 

[Fastfredy0]

You must either properly represent what I state and believe,
or you should keep yourself quiet and stop misrepresenting what people believe.

That's why I put you name on the post. It is entirely possible I represented what you wrote and what you wrote is not what you meant to say ... or maybe I made a mistake.

You must apparently believe that heaven will be void of anyone except the reformed because many of the reformed believe THEY are the only ones who will be saved.

LOL .... changing the subject again I see

Back to people who have died in the last 1000 years and never heard of Christ. How can they be saved. Last time you lead me to believe Muslim's could do it. How? How? How?
Again, these people IMO all go to hell which demonstrates they don't have Free Will

 

[atpollard]

You must either properly represent what I state and believe,
or you should keep yourself quiet and stop misrepresenting what people believe.

Tread lightly ...
... that is one of those areas where you point one finger at somebody else and THREE MORE point back at you. [make a gun with your hand if you don't understand the reference.]

I agree with the T.O.S. and oppose EVERYONE stating what somebody else believes (because they almost ALWAYS get it wrong). You have done the same with misstating Calvinism that they do with misstating Free Will. Nobody thinks THEY do it, but EVERYBODY does it.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's why I put you name on the post. It is entirely possible I represented what you wrote and what you wrote is not what you meant to say ... or maybe I made a mistake.

I don't say what I don't mean.
I say what I mean.
You are again being degrading.
You just can't stop.

LOL .... changing the subject again I see

Back to people who have died in the last 1000 years and never heard of Christ. How can they be saved. Last time you lead me to believe Muslim's could do it. How? How? How?
Again, these people IMO all go to hell which demonstrates they don't have Free Will

You can think what you want to.
I never tell you what you believe.


Maybe Dr. Craig could explain it better than I can.

You have to love what MaCarthur states:
No. They cannot be saved without Jesus...
BUT He refers to Romans 1....and how NO ONE has AN EXCUSE.

Incredible.
In the OT they could have been saved...
Now they cannot because GOD IS NOT JUST apparently,
which the reformed believe He is not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Tread lightly ...
... that is one of those areas where you point one finger at somebody else and THREE MORE point back at you. [make a gun with your hand if you don't understand the reference.]

I agree with the T.O.S. and oppose EVERYONE stating what somebody else believes (because they almost ALWAYS get it wrong). You have done the same with misstating Calvinism that they do with misstating Free Will. Nobody thinks THEY do it, but EVERYBODY does it.

Atpollard,
I cannot misrepresent calvinism because I use the sources of calvinism-
THE INSTITUTES
THE WCF

 

[Free]

Now they cannot because GOD IS NOT JUST apparently,
which the reformed believe He is not.

In all fairness, the reformed position is most definitely that God is just. If God has chosen a course of action or decreed something to be the case, then those things are, by definition, just, even if you or I disagree with it. The debate is never about whether or not God is just, it is about what we think God has decreed and about we think is just. What cannot do, is say that the reformed believe God isn't just.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not according to at least three people representing this forum. By your definition they claim there is a "Christ-less" salvation. wondering just the other day said Muslim's can be saved without knowing Christ.

If you are going to use what another member has said then you need to post their reply with the name of the forum, thread and reply number or else it is only hear say putting words in others mouth.

No need to reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

In all fairness, the reformed position is most definitely that God is just. If God has chosen a course of action or decreed something to be the case, then those things are, by definition, just, even if you or I disagree with it. The debate is never about whether or not God is just, it is about what we think God has decreed and about we think is just. What cannot do, is say that the reformed believe God isn't just.

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

I've gone through the Institutes and the WCF and there is NO JUSTICE in the God they represent.

I want to just take the time for a couple of posts with you.

Answer this:
What is justice?

 

[GodsGrace]

Tread lightly ...
... that is one of those areas where you point one finger at somebody else and THREE MORE point back at you. [make a gun with your hand if you don't understand the reference.]

I agree with the T.O.S. and oppose EVERYONE stating what somebody else believes (because they almost ALWAYS get it wrong). You have done the same with misstating Calvinism that they do with misstating Free Will. Nobody thinks THEY do it, but EVERYBODY does it.

This is about your third or fourth reference to my use of the English language.
Does it seem to you that English is my second language or that I don't understand American culture?

Until you know the contrary, you should assume a person writing knows the language.
When the language is perfectly spoken.

 

[Free]

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.

Then you are misrepresenting their position and your complaint of the same is moot. They absolutely believe God is just in all that he says and does. Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then you are misrepresenting their position and your complaint of the same is moot. They absolutely believe God is just in all that he says and does. Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just.

If you want to say that God is just, then you're going to have to explain to me WHY He is just.

If you're wearing a red hat, I can't say it's brown and just let it go at that.

Let's have a real conversation....

What is justice?
And WHAT IN CALVINIST/REFORMED teaching shows that God is just?

Two questions.
Or, take one at a time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then you are misrepresenting their position and your complaint of the same is moot. They absolutely believe God is just in all that he says and does. Again, the argument is in exactly what it is that God has said and done, not in whether or not he is just.

Yeah.
They could believe the sky is green.
That does not let it be so.

 

[atpollard]

Atpollard,
I cannot misrepresent calvinism because I use the sources of calvinism-
THE INSTITUTES
THE WCF

Nobody thinks THEY do it, but EVERYBODY does it.

It starts when you post beyond the quotes from the WCF and Institutes ... your little additions.

I guarantee that neither book ever describes God as "unfair" or "confused" or describes their doctrine as "man made" or "contradictory" ... yet you interject those words among your quotes when making your points.
That is misrepresenting what others believe.

like this ...

I can say, without hesitation, that the reformed believe God is not just.