A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Iconoclast]

Those who do not understand reformed theology sometimes look at portions of it and create evil caricatures in which they blame God for mans sin.
What happens is like watching videos of that last major tsunami.
They unleach a tsunami of error.
They start with a wrong view of the fall into sin and death.
This leads to twisted views of God and His holy attributes.
The false idol of free will enters because denying Adam died, they have him as a wounded zombie....not dead, but still response-able.
God gets blamed.
They say..He created everything so this Tsunami must be His fault.
Reformed persons see the devastation, and living in solid theological homes they offer good food and shelter.
It is rejected by the victims who cobble together shacks and lean to shelters saying my free will allows me to do this i do not need your man made structures.
Just like those after the tower of Babel they spue out incoherent statements that are miles away from healthy truth.
They prefer to live like this, in theological squalor.
They continue to construct from broken tin, and cardboard, a theological mess, than go and blame God for their plight.

 

[atpollard]

Your doctrine in essence blames God for the destruction of those who who don't get "drawn".
Why didn't God "draw" Hitler or Stalin?

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" [Romans 9:19 NASB]

Paul anticipated your question. Why settle for MY answer when you can go and read GOD’s answer?

 

[atpollard]

Ever been "drawn" to some restaurant based on what you had heard or read?

Not like a fish in a net or Paul being dragged by an angry mob. I suspect there might be another Greek word for that, but John did not use it in John 6:44; he used the word used for fish in a net and Paul dragged by an angry mob or a soldier drawing his sword from its scabbard. [those are the other BIBLICAL uses of that word]

 

[atpollard]

Total Depravity - which is nowhere in scripture....
Depravity is in scritpure, but by total you mean that man is incapable of turning or seeking God and this is not correct since I've posted at least 10 verses showing that man MUST SEEK GOD.

You merely ASSUME that because God commanded something that man is capable of doing it … not seeking God without the IRRESISTIBLE DRAW of God. (“I have chosen you.” … a popular saying of God to men).

”BE YE HOLY AS GOD IS HOLY” … God commanded it, do people obey? Are some people perfectly Holy “AS GOD IS HOLY”? … Are people capable of doing it?

 

[atpollard]

The NT teaches that it is by choice.

John 10:29 said how they became His sheep (It was the Father’s choice and not the sheep’s) … Just like John 6:44 and John 6:65 said it was.

 

[JLB]

This same teaching is now known as Calvinism

Please provide the scripture that says Calvinism has replace the doctrine of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not like a fish in a net or Paul being dragged by an angry mob. I suspect there might be another Greek word for that, but John did not use it in John 6:44; he used the word used for fish in a net and Paul dragged by an angry mob or a soldier drawing his sword from its scabbard. [those are the other BIBLICAL uses of that word]

Yes, and the take away is it was effectual. It accomplished what it was meant to.

 

[atpollard]

John Calvin taught that God chooses who will be saved and who will be passed over.

John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 all taught the same thing … you just “passed them over”.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please provide the scripture that says Calvinism has replace the doctrine of Christ.

After morning service, I will show how the gospel of John teaches that exact thing.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 10:29 said how they became His sheep (It was the Father’s choice and not the sheep’s) … Just like John 6:44 and John 6:65 said it was.

Ezk 34 says they were always sheep, just lost.

 

[JLB]

You mean like the Apostle John recorded Jesus teaching from His very lips in John 6:44

• No one can come to Me [Total Inability of man to choose Christ]
• unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Election of God to 'show mercy on whom He will show mercy']
• draws him; [Irresistible Grace of God effectually draws man to salvation in the Son]
• and I will raise him up at the last day. [Preservation of Saints, by God, from Predestination through Glorification.]

Yup … we DEFINITELY embrace the Calvinist “doctrine of Christ”. Do you?

Mixing Calvinism with the doctrine of Christ, only perverts it the way Catholicism is the mixture of the teachings of man and the doctrine of Christ.


Christians follow Jesus Christ; obey His Gospel, obey His Doctrine, obey His commandments.

Those who remain in Christ are those who obey Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, and appeals to the flesh, teaching as commandments of men, making the word of God of no effect.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16





JLB

 

[JLB]

After morning service, I will show how the gospel of John teaches that exact thing.

Yes please do.


Please show us how Calvinism has replaced the doctrine of Christ.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

And yet Calvin taught that God judges, and even unjustly.

I really don’t care what John Calvin taught. I never met the man. I never read his book. I arrived at NONE of my theology from his teaching. [The only point of TULIP that I was ’taught’ was L, and Calvin was wish washy on the L of TULIP … being only a 4-pointer, himself.]

From the hearsay, he seems to have said a LOT of things that the Bible also says.
However, in me, your crusade against a dead man falls on deaf ears, not because I defend Calvin but because I am indifferent to John’s teachings.

 

[atpollard]

Mixing Calvinism with the doctrine of Christ, only perverts it the way Catholicism is the mixture of the teachings of man and the doctrine of Christ.

There was no mixing … I quoted the scripture verbatim.

• John said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.”
• Calvinism says “No one can go to Jesus unless God the Father draws them.”

• John says “I will raise you up at the last day”
• Calvinism says “Jesus will raise you up at the last day.”

I don’t see any “perversion” of the message or any “conflict” between what the Bible says and what Calvinists claim the Bible says.

• [ T ] Can anyone go to the Son without being drawn by the Father?
• [ U ] Are those drawn by the Father drawn because of their will or the Father’s will?
• [ L ] Are those not drawn by the Father accepted (raised) by the Son?
• [ I ] Do some drawn by the Father resist the power of God?
• [ P ] Does Jesus raise all who the Father drew to Him or not?

Which question have we gotten wrong in our exegesis?

 

[JLB]

I really don’t care what John Calvin taught. I never met the man. I never read his book. I arrived at NONE of my theology from his teaching. [The only point of TULIP that I was ’taught’ was L, and Calvin was wish washy on the L of TULIP … being only a 4-pointer, himself.]

From the hearsay, he seems to have said a LOT of things that the Bible also says.
However, in me, your crusade against a dead man falls on deaf ears, not because I defend Calvin but because I am indifferent to John’s teachings.

Then from now on, use scripture and it’s context, and address the questions asked honestly.


Based on the following scripture, do you believe a Christian brother who hates his brother in Christ, still has eternal life remaining in him?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




JLB

 

[JLB]

Can anyone go to the Son without being drawn by the Father?

No.



Did Judas go to the Son?





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

No.



Did Judas go to the Son?





JLB

No, not in the sense as Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 denote.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes please do.


Please show us how Calvinism has replaced the doctrine of Christ.



JLB

They are the same, you just call the Gospel Calvinism

 

[JLB]

There was no mixing … I quoted the scripture verbatim.

John said “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws them.”
Calvinism says “No one can go to Jesus unless God the Father draws them.”

John says “I will raise you up at the last day”
Calvinism says “Jesus will raise you up at the last day.”

I don’t see any “perversion” of the message or any “conflict” between what the Bible says and what Calvinists claim the Bible says.

• Can anyone go to the Son without being drawn by the Father?
• Are those drawn by the Father drawn because of their will or the Father’s will?
• Are those not drawn by the Father accepted (raised) by the Son?
• Do some drawn by the Father resist the power of God?
• Does Jesus raise all who the Father drew to Him or not?

Which question have we gotten wrong in our exegesis?

Please quote one passage of scripture and make your point from that scripture and ask you question from that specific scripture.

That way we can study the actual scripture and context from which you are making your point.

There is no scripture or scripture reference in your above post. Only bits and pieces mixed together.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Ezk 34 says they were always sheep, just lost.

So does Lk 15:6

And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.