A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

Free will is stated in the OT when offerings were given voluntarily.

Who in the OT obeyed God's Law and obtained RIGHTEOUSNESS? Anyone COULD, but NOBODY DID. That is both Free Will and Fallen Nature working hand-in-hand.

So the Father DRAWS some to the SON ... as a fisherman draws fish in a net: there is no asking the fish if they want to come, the will of the fisherman (God) is the only will that matters. The rest of the fish (men) continue swimming the wide road to destruction - free and following their desire. Any fish COULD have swum into the net, but no fish willingly chose to.

 

[atpollard]

Genesis 4:7 If you do well [believing Me and doing what is acceptable and pleasing to Me], will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well [but ignore My instruction], sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you [to overpower you], but you must master it.” No one masters sin. It is an impossible request.

... just empirically speaking, not EVERYONE murders their brother, so SOME seem to resist that particular sin.
I think that topic needs a closer examination.

That said, God giving a command is a good "logical argument" implying that men can obey or disobey the command. Otherwise the rhetorical argument against God that Paul presents in Romans 9 has some "logical" teeth: God commands men to flap their arms and fly to Heaven, and then DAMNS THEM TO HELL when they cannot.

(That was the view of God that led me to become an atheist before I became a teen.)

 

[atpollard]

If God allowed Satan there and didn't stop him .then the complaint would be why stop there ? Why not helicopter parent his creation?

This free will wouldn't exist at all.

Setting up a contest between the most Powerful and Cunning of all God's creations and the most innocent of all God's creations seems a little beyond "not being a helicopter parent". It is closer to entering your toddler in a "Pit Bull fighting contest". Like in Job, God must have held SATAN on a short leash.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Genesis 4:7 If you do well [believing Me and doing what is acceptable and pleasing to Me], will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well [but ignore My instruction], sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you [to overpower you], but you must master it.” No one masters sin. It is an impossible request.

.. just empirically speaking, not EVERYONE murders their brother, so SOME seem to resist that particular sin.
I think that topic needs a closer examination.

True enough ... my point of the verse was to show God's command to master Sin which commands that we do not have the power to obey

That said, God giving a command is a good "logical argument" implying that men can obey or disobey the command. Otherwise the rhetorical argument against God that Paul presents in Romans 9 has some "logical" teeth: God commands men to flap their arms and fly to Heaven, and then DAMNS THEM TO HELL when they cannot.

Well, I grant that giving a command often means one can obey it.... but I gave 10ish versions where God has given us commands that we cannot obey. When God tells us to not sin He might as well tell them to flap their arms and fly to Heaven; both are impossible. We can strive for the goals He sets, but we cannot achieve them.
Also, the extent to which we achieve is through the Spirit and not ourselves (I can give 20ish verses if requested)

Grant us the ability to comply with Your commands and command as You will and give us the ability to do as You ask and ask as You will – Augustine

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Who in the OT obeyed God's Law and obtained RIGHTEOUSNESS? Anyone COULD, but NOBODY DID. That is both Free Will and Fallen Nature working hand-in-hand.

Zacharias...and his wife.....they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Lk.1:5-6

So the Father DRAWS some to the SON ... as a fisherman draws fish in a net: there is no asking the fish if they want to come, the will of the fisherman (God) is the only will that matters. The rest of the fish (men) continue swimming the wide road to destruction - free and following their desire. Any fish COULD have swum into the net, but no fish willingly chose to.

Actually, parable of the good and bad fish in the same net isn't about calling sinners to Christ. It's about final separation.

 

[atpollard]

Grant us the ability to comply with Your commands and command as You will and give us the ability to do as You ask and ask as You will – Augustine

Augustine!
[just kidding]

 

[journeymanisnothing]

... just empirically speaking, not EVERYONE murders their brother, so SOME seem to resist that particular sin.
I think that topic needs a closer examination.

That said, God giving a command is a good "logical argument" implying that men can obey or disobey the command. Otherwise the rhetorical argument against God that Paul presents in Romans 9 has some "logical" teeth: God commands men to flap their arms and fly to Heaven, and then DAMNS THEM TO HELL when they cannot.

(That was the view of God that led me to become an atheist before I became a teen.)

It's funny how no thought is given to how God hardened Pharaohs' heart.

 

[atpollard]

Zacharias...and his wife.....they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Lk.1:5-6

NT not OT ... If RIGHTEOUSNESS could be obtained without Christ then you have just proven that Jesus' incarnation, life and death were not needed for salvation.

Do Zacharias and his wife prove that the Christ was not needed for salvation?
Were they righteous because of the works of the Law?

 

[atpollard]

It's funny how no thought is given to how God hardened Pharaohs' heart.

So you advocate that God both warned Cain and hardened his heart to ignore God's warning?
Sounds more like LOKI (Norse god of mischief).

 

[atpollard]

Actually, parable of the good and bad fish in the same net isn't about calling sinners to Christ. It's about final separation.

Actually, I was saying NOTHING about the parable. The word DRAW in John 6:44 is the same Greek word used for "a fisherman drawing a net into a boat" or a "soldier drawing a sword out of its sheath" or a "crowd dragging Paul off to the Magistrate". In every case, irresistible force is used to accomplish the task and the object of the drawing is never given the option to "agree or decline the offer". God draws men to the Son ... Biblical Fact!

Men have the right to decline the invitation ... human opinion.

 

[GodsGrace]

I double dare you to post a NT verse that teaches "God chooses" ... (I am not sure how "in secret/not secret" applies to God and before "the foundation of the world" or "we were born".) Your statement implies that what the WCF states is not found in Scripture ... Is that really true? I'd like YOU to show that it is not true.

Reformed theology teaches that God predestines those that are saved and those that are not saved.
Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 21, paragraph 5

This is repeated in the WCF.

What is secret is HOW or WHY God chooses each individual person.
It teaches that we don't know why, but that it's for God's own pleasure.
This would fall under Unconditional Election.

Instead Jesus came here to teach us how to be members of the Kingdom of God here on earth,
and also what we must do to be chosen/elected for eternal salvation. There are no secrets.

Here are some of Jesus' own teachings, and some not, on how to be chosen by God:

John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 3:19, 21
19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
John 6:44-45
. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
And God wishes that all be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So God let's us know HOW He chooses:
Belief in God
Belief in His Son
Doing good deeds.
Be taught of God,
Learn from the Father.
Dwell with the Son.

John 15:5-6
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a "Particular Baptist" ... we Baptists are special snowflakes! :shades

That you are!

 

[GodsGrace]

For irony, by and large ... Calvinists believe we follow three men: Jesus and John and Paul ... and we believe that our "Free Will" critics also follow the teachings of a man: themselves.

That's why the discussions, too often, turn personal. Especially when one side tells the other side what the other side believes.

I can present 4 of the 5 points of TULIP in a SINGLE BIBLE VERSE ... so telling me that I am following John Calvin and ignoring Scripture really is just throwing sand into your NEIGHBOR's face.

Right. I also hear that I'm saving myself.
And one side tells the other side what they believe because of the different types of calvinists.
Sometimes I think the newly converted don't know what they're talking about!

John Calvin popularized the reformed faith.
It was NEVER TAUGHT BEFORE Luther.
This reminds many, including me, about White and Russell, etc.
But I KNOW that you know scripture very well and I KNOW that John Calvin based his teachings on the bible.

I do ask myself, however, how it could be that no one before the year 1,500AD knew what Luther and Calvin and Knox and Zwingli taught. Were the theologians back then all dumb?

Except for Augustine, of course.
Funny, he was Catholic and the CC doesn't even accept what he taught at the end of his life.
(predestination, absence of free will)

 

[atpollard]

Reformed theology teaches that God predestines those that are saved and those that are not saved.
Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 21, paragraph 5

This is repeated in the WCF.

What is secret is HOW or WHY God chooses each individual person.
It teaches that we don't know why, but that it's for God's own pleasure.
This would fall under Unconditional Election.

Instead Jesus came here to teach us how to be members of the Kingdom of God here on earth,
and also what we must do to be chosen/elected for eternal salvation. There are no secrets.

I honestly don't understand this fixation on "The Institutes" and the WCF". Frankly, those that wrote BOTH came to the conclusions that they did by READING SCRIPTURE and MOST TULIP believing Christians living came to their belief in TULIP from reading Scripture and not from reading either the WCF or the Institutes.

If you really want to understand what the Reformed (living today) believe and why, you will need to focus more on what Jesus and Paul said and less on what Calvin and (I don't even know who wrote the WCF).

Now to focus on your SCRIPTURE ...

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: Genesis 4:7 If you do well [believing Me and doing what is acceptable and pleasing to Me], will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well [but ignore My instruction], sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you [to overpower you], but you must master it.” No one masters sin. It is an impossible request.

True enough ... my point of the verse was to show God's command to master Sin which commands that we do not have the power to obey


Well, I grant that giving a command often means one can obey it.... but I gave 10ish versions where God has given us commands that we cannot obey. When God tells us to not sin He might as well tell them to flap their arms and fly to Heaven; both are impossible. We can strive for the goals He sets, but we cannot achieve them.
Also, the extent to which we achieve is through the Spirit and not ourselves (I can give 20ish verses if requested)

Grant us the ability to comply with Your commands and command as You will and give us the ability to do as You ask and ask as You will – Augustine

When did God tell us not to sin?

 

[jasonc]

I honestly don't understand this fixation on "The Institutes" and the WCF". Frankly, those that wrote BOTH came to the conclusions that they did by READING SCRIPTURE and MOST TULIP believing Christians living came to their belief in TULIP from reading Scripture and not from reading either the WCF or the Institutes.

If you really want to understand what the Reformed (living today) believe and why, you will need to focus more on what Jesus and Paul said and less on what Calvin and (I don't even know who wrote the WCF).

Now to focus on your SCRIPTURE ...

The wcf,church of Scotland after the bishop wars where the bishops got together to unify a common belief ,to prevent a return to papist theology irc .

 

[GodsGrace]

I honestly don't understand this fixation on "The Institutes" and the WCF". Frankly, those that wrote BOTH came to the conclusions that they did by READING SCRIPTURE and MOST TULIP believing Christians living came to their belief in TULIP from reading Scripture and not from reading either the WCF or the Institutes.

If you really want to understand what the Reformed (living today) believe and why, you will need to focus more on what Jesus and Paul said and less on what Calvin and (I don't even know who wrote the WCF).

Now to focus on your SCRIPTURE ...

The fixation is because I'm told I don't understand calvinism.
It's like the CCC of the Catholic Church.
If you want to find out what the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches (like the reformed church)
you'd have to use the CCC.

It also is based on the bible but it's SPECIFIC to the Catholic Church.

Why?
You think you believe like the rest of Christianity?
If you did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[atpollard]

Right. I also hear that I'm saving myself.

That's because you are "Pelagian"!
[obviously, I am kidding]
... but that is the "common" accusation against any form of synergistic salvation (man cooperating with God).

What we get is the accusation that "We believe God is a monster and all men are mindless puppets" ... which is a PERFECT summation of our Doctrine of Original Sin, right?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

NT not OT ... If RIGHTEOUSNESS could be obtained without Christ then you have just proven that Jesus' incarnation, life and death were not needed for salvation.

Of course the Judge of all is needed for salvation. The Messiah held back his wrath against those who beat him.

Do Zacharias and his wife prove that the Christ was not needed for salvation?
Were they righteous because of the works of the Law?

They were righteous because the law they walked in says we all need mercy.

 

[atpollard]

Why?
You think you believe like the rest of Christianity?

Of course not ... wide is the road ... narrow is the path.