A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[journeymanisnothing]

So you advocate that God both warned Cain and hardened his heart to ignore God's warning?
Sounds more like LOKI (Norse god of mischief).

I was referring to Rom.9, where it says God hardened Pharaohs heart. Apparently you've given little or no thought to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who in the OT obeyed God's Law and obtained RIGHTEOUSNESS? Anyone COULD, but NOBODY DID. That is both Free Will and Fallen Nature working hand-in-hand.

I don't understand what you're asking.
We are saved by faith.
Plus, I don't know what you mean by God's Law. I hope you mean the 10 commandments.
Why the OT?
We're required to follow God's commandments today.
Free will is what allows us to obey or not obey a command.
Moral free will is found throughout the bible,,,
and this is all free will means biblically speaking...
the ability to make a choice between two options with no outside coercion.
The outside coercion, in reformed theology, is God.
(since it is God that decrees/ordains and predestines everything).

So the Father DRAWS some to the SON ... as a fisherman draws fish in a net: there is no asking the fish if they want to come, the will of the fisherman (God) is the only will that matters. The rest of the fish (men) continue swimming the wide road to destruction - free and following their desire. Any fish COULD have swum into the net, but no fish willingly chose to.

Draws has different meanings depending on how it's used.
Unfortunately, we only have the one word DRAW...but it does not mean the same in every verse.
The father drawing to the son....
means
ATTRACT.

John 6:44

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course not ... wide is the road ... narrow is the path.

If you think doctrine saves us,
we're all in a lot of trouble.

This means that IF you're the wrong one,
you believe you're going to the other place?
That's interesting.

 

[GodsGrace]

The wcf,church of Scotland after the bishop wars where the bishops got together to unify a common belief ,to prevent a return to papist theology irc .

Wow. Christiandom after the reformation DID return to papist theology.
Only the reformed are left believing in determinism...all the others have rejected it and returned to pre-reformation beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's because you are "Pelagian"!
[obviously, I am kidding]
... but that is the "common" accusation against any form of synergistic salvation (man cooperating with God).

What we get is the accusation that "We believe God is a monster and all men are mindless puppets" ... which is a PERFECT summation of our Doctrine of Original Sin, right?

LOL
Well, I'm at least a semi-pelagian.
Give me SOME credit!

Of course---free will believers must by necessity believe in synergism.
God offers,
We accept or deny.
BUT that doesn't mean we think we save ourselves.
It's very annoying to hear this -- it would be nice to talk with each other (the two fronts) without using all these terms.
I like to think that we're Christian but have different doctrine...albeit very different. I'm sure we agree on a lot.

But, seriously, I do believe reformed theology changes the nature of God.

So that's Total Depravity.
We both agree that we're born depraved, with a sin nature, or concupiscense.
That God takes it away ---- SOMEHOW.
And we become children of God.
We don't agree on whether or not babies are GUILTY OF original sin (imputation).
You think they are.
I think they're born with the sin nature but are not personally responsible for sin until the age of reason.



Shall we move on to UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION?
New thread?

 

[jasonc]

Wow. Christiandom after the reformation DID return to papist theology.
Only the reformed are left believing in determinism...all the others have rejected it and returned to pre-reformation beliefs.

Uhm you mean maryology ?

You know that modern arminist are from John Wesley who called the pope the antichrist and wouldn't marry a Catholic to a protestant .

Adam Clarke of that period says revelation 17 and the beast fit thr Catholic church.

You mean the veneration of the saints?

The Vatican has primacy of the church?

While not ideal then .I stated why and it took one hundred years to get the wcf.the London confession is the start of that .

The Vatican simply wanted a church foothold in England again.

 

[jasonc]

I would hardly call these

Twentieth ave and winter beach cog .
Part of the Roman church the former churches pastor says nope ,no extra books for us

The world on revival church ,certainly anti Catholic ,founder said that was a dead body .

 

[jasonc]

All not reformed at all but arminist.

The Jesus movement? Yup also not keem on the Roman catholicism.i know one pastor spent months on why they are false .he also got on protestants for that too

 

[GodsGrace]

I would hardly call these

Twentieth ave and winter beach cog .
Part of the Roman church the former churches pastor says nope ,no extra books for us

The world on revival church ,certainly anti Catholic ,founder said that was a dead body .

It's the only church upholding moral values...
and the reformed. I give them that,
and it's an important "that".

You know Jason, a church could teach what it wants to.
They all do.
It's no reason to hate the CC so much.
You sin every time you write such nonsense.
I could feel the hatred in your heart. It's terrible.

Mary is not spoken of as much as you may think.
She is the MOTHER OF JESUS.
She bore a baby from the HOLY SPIRIT.
I think that practically makes her the bride of God....I don't know.
Maybe that's why she's called the Queen of Heaven?

Anyway, stop picking on that denomination.
It's not right.

 

[jasonc]

It's the only church upholding moral values...
and the reformed. I give them that,
and it's an important "that".

You know Jason, a church could teach what it wants to.
They all do.
It's no reason to hate the CC so much.
You sin every time you write such nonsense.
I could feel the hatred in your heart. It's terrible.

Mary is not spoken of as much as you may think.
She is the MOTHER OF JESUS.
She bore a baby from the HOLY SPIRIT.
I think that practically makes her the bride of God....I don't know.
Maybe that's why she's called the Queen of Heaven?

Anyway, stop picking on that denomination.
It's not right.

Picking ?

Once you go down that path ?

So the charismatic prayer guys say locally only they and the pentacostals teach modern day offices

The ones(pentacostals) I attend deny that Mary is a perpetual virgin .they would deny much on what the Papal bulls say.

So when I go to the charismatic prayer group I am therefore excommunicated de facto .treated as a lost soul .

Papal bull

I can pray and seek grace from Mary ,where as I highly doubt the bishops of the rcc would allow that to be contradicted.

So lest I derail this on why the papist is wrong that's all I will say .extra books on things leads one to that .

 

[atpollard]

All errors in the RCC stem from ONE ERROR … placing TRADITION above Scripture and making the Magisterium (a group of fallible men) the final judge on what is TRADITION and, therefore TRUTH.

Hence the Reformation (not just Reformed/Calvinist) battle cry: Sola Scriptura!

 

[atpollard]

Draws has different meanings depending on how it's used.
Unfortunately, we only have the one word DRAW...but it does not mean the same in every verse.
The father drawing to the son....
means
ATTRACT.

The word ALWAYS means “effective”. If you attempt to draw and the object or person does not come, it was not drawn. So the English word “attract” has a slightly different meaning than either the English word DRAW or the Greek word it represents.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The father drawing to the son....
means
ATTRACT.
John 6:44

People who have heard and learned and are attracted to God go to Jesus, because Jesus is God. Of course no one comes to the Son, unless they're attracted to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Noah BECAME righteous by his obedience, the obedience of faith... just like everyone today.

Grace had nothing to do with it?

 

[Iconoclast]

No one becomes righteous apart from obedience; the obedience of faith.

Grace had nothing to do with it?

 

[JLB]

Grace had nothing to do with it?

Of course grace has something to do with it.

Grace is the God given ability to obey the word from God by which we receive faith.

Grace is both “something“ and “Someone”.

Grace is the Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

Grace empowers us to do what we can not do without it.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

If you really want to understand what the Reformed (living today) believe and why, you will need to focus more on what Jesus and Paul said and less on what Calvin and (I don't even know who wrote the WCF).

I don't think 1 person in a 1000 could figure out the many nuances of scripture without help. The information about so many topics is spread out in scripture here, there and everywhere. Then, assuming you get by the issue of 1 Cor. 2:14 and have time to study, you also have to have the organizational skills, intelligence and objectivity to over come.
I think for the individual the probability of putting everything together in a coherent, non-contradictory oneness is HIGHLY unlikely.

 

[JLB]

I don't think 1 person in a 1000 could figure out the many nuances of scripture without help. The information about so many topics is spread out in scripture here, there and everywhere. Then, assuming you get by the issue of 1 Cor. 2:14 and have time to study, you also have to have the organizational skills, intelligence and objectivity to over come.
I think for the individual the probability of putting everything together in a coherent, non-contradictory oneness is HIGHLY unlikely.

And yet we are exhorted to…

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

• you all speak the same thing,
• and that there be no divisions among you,
• but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind
• and in the same judgment.

Who should we listen to, you or the Holy Spirit?

Why not let’s all read and believe what the scriptures teach, rather than being divided and blown about by every wind of doctrine?


The phrase Total Depravity is not found in scripture.







JLB

 

[atpollard]

I don't think 1 person in a 1000 could figure out the many nuances of scripture without help. The information about so many topics is spread out in scripture here, there and everywhere. Then, assuming you get by the issue of 1 Cor. 2:14 and have time to study, you also have to have the organizational skills, intelligence and objectivity to over come.
I think for the individual the probability of putting everything together in a coherent, non-contradictory oneness is HIGHLY unlikely.

None the less, I arrived at TU*IP reading the bible under Wesleyan teachers - over a decade before I ever heard the term "Calvinism" (or "Arminianism"). It was another decade before I read the WCF (after three decades of believing in TU*IP) and I have never read Calvin's Institutes (after 4 decades of believing that God saved me 100% monergisticly).

So I still think The Bible is a better read than the WCF. :yes
(that and I'm really old.)

 

[Fastfredy0]

So I still think The Bible is a better read than the WCF.

Granted. The Bible is God's word and the WCF merely a reorganization of God's word to enhance understanding; God in his graciousness has given us teachers (and false teachers if I am to be thorough). Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; ... yahda, yahda

None the less, I arrived at TU*IP reading the bible under Wesleyan teachers

Hmmm, Wesleyan teachers do not teach TU*IP... so to come to a contrary understanding than what you are taught is unusual IMO. If I was only taught under Wesleyan's I probably would be in agreement with them IMO.

It was another decade before I read the WCF (after three decades of believing in TU*IP) and I have never read Calvin's Institutes (after 4 decades of believing that God saved me 100% monergisticly).

Interesting, so how did you come to believe it was monergistic?