A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[JLB]

No, not in the sense as Jn 12:32 and Jn 6:44 denote.

First you have not used and scripture, only scripture references with no actual content. You have only stated your opinion.


Judas Iscariot was drawn to Jesus and confirmed as a disciple, as well as promoted to an apostle, in which he was empowered and sent out to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost; cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers and raise the dead.


Judas Iscariot was a follower of Jesus Christ, then years later he became a traitor and was lost.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


He was the one thing, then he transgressed and became a traitor.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

I agree (and praise God for His gift) …
I liked THIS parallel explanation better:

For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift -- not from works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 [CSB]

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do. Ephesians 2:10 [CSB]

• Verses 8-9 establish HOW we got to the position of being “His Workmanship” - making clear that it is the work of God and to the Glory of God rather than any innate merit in me.
• Verse 10 proclaims my exalted position - IN HIM - and reveals the ‘secret’ needed to persevere, to be of service to Him, and to reciprocate that amazing Divine Love … be / stay / live-walk-work IN HIM. “ABIDE” as you quoted in the other verse. As we abide, we are free to walk in good works.
• Therein lies the AMAZING GRACE … our salvation is/was of God, so we do not need to earn it or be worthy of it or to sustain it … we are free to love and do and abide with the same unconditional grace that God dwells in … free from fear. We are loved and accepted, so we can love and labor in freedom. “Here, Daddy, I did this for you.” …approaching the Father as a small child in love and free from fear.

 

[atpollard]

Then from now on, use scripture and it’s context, and address the questions asked honestly.


Based on the following scripture, do you believe a Christian brother who hates his brother in Christ, still has eternal life remaining in him?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

First you demand that I use scripture in context (which I have no idea how that relates to indifference about quotes from The Institutes by John Calvin) …

Then you present a question for me to answer based on a single scripture ripped from its context.

So which is it? Scripture in context or not?

As a general “rule of thumb”:

• Hate is bad (although there are Biblical exceptions for “hating the things that God hates”).
• Psalm 139:21 [CSB] LORD, don't I hate those who hate you, and detest those who rebel against you?
• Revelation 2:6 [CSB] "Yet you do have this: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.“
  

 

[atpollard]

Did Judas go to the Son?

No.

 

[atpollard]

Please quote one passage of scripture and make your point from that scripture and ask you question from that specific scripture.

That way we can study the actual scripture and context from which you are making your point.

There is no scripture or scripture reference in your above post. Only bits and pieces mixed together.






JLB

That post deals EXCLUSIVELY with John 6:44 (which I have posted 4 times for you). I thought you would recognize John 6:44 by this time. John 6:44 teaches 4 of the 5 points of TULIP in a single verse. I quoted the verse verbatim. I listed the parallel teaching from Reformed Theology (what you call “Calvinism” and I call “Particular Baptist”). I pointed out each of the 5 points of TULIP addressed in that one verse (four directly and one by who was excluded from that verse).

Your response is non sequitur from my post.

 

[JLB]

I agree (and praise God for His gift) …
I liked THIS parallel explanation better:

For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift -- not from works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 [CSB]

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time for us to do. Ephesians 2:10 [CSB]

• Verses 8-9 establish HOW we got to the position of being “His Workmanship” - making clear that it is the work of God and to the Glory of God rather than any innate merit in me.
• Verse 10 proclaims my exalted position - IN HIM - and reveals the ‘secret’ needed to persevere, to be of service to Him, and to reciprocate that amazing Divine Love … be / stay / live-walk-work IN HIM. “ABIDE” as you quoted in the other verse. As we abide, we are free to walk in good works.
• Therein lies the AMAZING GRACE … our salvation is/was of God, so we do not need to earn it or be worthy of it or to sustain it … we are free to love and do and abide with the same unconditional grace that God dwells in … free from fear. We are loved and accepted, so we can love and labor in freedom. “Here, Daddy, I did this for you.” …approaching the Father as a small child in love and free from fear.

Thank you for your use of scripture.

However you disregarded the scripture I presented for discussing and the principle it teaches us about remaining “in Christ”.


Here it is again —


My point:
Those who remain in Christ are those who obey Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question from my point:
Do you believe we remain “in Christ” by obeying Him; by keeping His commandments?




JLB

 

[JLB]

No.

So you believe Judas was never a follower of Jesus Christ?

 

[atpollard]

He was the one thing, then he transgressed and became a traitor.

• [Jhn 17:12 NKJV] 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
• [2Th 2:3 NKJV] 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

He was “one thing” … the son of perdition.
He “became a traitor” … one does not become a traitor until one performs an act of treason.

He was ALWAYS a “son of perdition” and it only took time for it to be “revealed”. An analogy would be the tares among the wheat. The tares were NEVER wheat, they merely looked similar to wheat for a while … until time revealed the truth.

 

[JLB]

That post deals EXCLUSIVELY with John 6:44 (which I have posted 4 times for you). I thought you would recognize John 6:44 by this time. John 6:44 teaches 4 of the 5 points of TULIP in a single verse. I quoted the verse verbatim. I listed the parallel teaching from Reformed Theology (what you call “Calvinism” and I call “Particular Baptist”). I pointed out each of the 5 points of TULIP addressed in that one verse (four directly and one by who was excluded from that verse).

Your response is non sequitur from my post.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


Contextually we also see —


This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:39


We see that it’s the Fathers will that those He has given to His Son should not be lost; that they should be raised up on the last day.


Do we agree on this?



Headed to service. Be back later.




JLB

 

[JLB]

He was “one thing” … the son of perdition.
He “became a traitor” … one does not become a traitor until one performs an act of treason.

Yes one does not become something UNTIL…

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe we remain “in Christ” by obeying Him; by keeping His commandments?

No. I think you have the cart and horse backwards. We obey BECAUSE we abide in Him … for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 [NKJV]

 

[atpollard]

We see that it’s the Fathers will that those He has given to His Son should not be lost; that they should be raised up on the last day.


Do we agree on this?

Yes.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it does not.
YOU are the ONLY person saying that Reformed Theology makes that claim.

The claim would be that God created evil.

Here's the problem, as I see it.

Reformed theology by John Calvin states conflicting doctrine.

In Book 1/17/5
the following is stated by John Calvin:
"I concede more -that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict."
In the same paragraph it says:
Why, then, they ask, should the thief be punished for robbing him whom the Lord chose to chastise with poverty? Why should the murderer be punished for slaying him whose life the Lord had terminated? If all such persons serve the will of God, why should they be punished? I deny that they serve the will of God. For we cannot say that he who is carried away by a wicked mind performs service on the order of God, when he is only following his own malignant desires. He obeys God, who, being instructed in his will, hastens in the direction in which God calls him. But how are we so instructed unless by his word? The will declared by his word is, therefore, that which we must keep in view in acting, God requires of us nothing but what he enjoins. If we design anything contrary to his precept, it is not obedience, but contumacy and transgression. But if he did not will it, we could not do it. I admit this.


Now, if someone could explain to us how God could predestine everything and has decreed all from before the beginning of time
BUT
God does not cause the person to do evil.....
Even Calvin admits it doesn't make much sense.
It's one big confusion.
God is not a God of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you HATE the boogie man?
Of course not. One only HATES things one believes in. Both God’s allies and enemies share a belief in God, one praises His attributes and the other shakes a fist as His “unfairness”.

We start out as enemies of God, until He changes our heart. Paul tried to tell you that, but you rejected him in Ephesians 2, so more scripture is pointless. I can only tell you that you are wrong … God loves those that hate him and changes their heart so they can love Him back.

There are persons who know God exists but hate Him anyway.
I'm sure you've met some.

And yes, we start out as enemies and then our heart is changed.
I can't remember discussing Ephesians 2, many good verses there.

I don't believe I'm wrong about God's nature...
He doesn't force anyone to love Him.
That's not real love.
Romans 12:9
9Let love be without hypocrisy.

If God changes our heart so we could love Him,
it would be the epitomy of hypocrisy.
What value would that love have?
None.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another untruth. Again, your ability to communicate may be the reason for this falsehood.
I know lot's of nice RCs. I believe their/your works base theology largely founded on the self-appointed tradition of men quite possibly leads to hell. I hope not. Seems their are a lots of genuine believers in Christ (you included) that I hope 'make it'. I feel sorry for them ... so are 'sweet' people from a human standpoint. Nevertheless, When you understand the idolatry of the mass, that propitiatory sacrifice of Christ can never save anyone, the treasury of merit, indulgences, the excess merit of Mary, purgatory, that one righteousness consists of that of Christ, Mary, the saints and oneself, sacraments, that the priest is another Christ … then one does not have the gospel of that leads to salvation. James White
I hope he's wrong
I believe in salvation by Faith Alone in Christ Alone. Then we have you who believe Muslims can go to heaven. Craziness. Or RCs like you who celebrate the literal eating of Christ on Sunday.... idol worship


I only get upset when you lie. Granted, because I think you are a 'good' person from a human standpoint ... I like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can't articulate what you are thinking causing the literal interpretation of what you author to be inconsistent with what you are trying to say. Also you are confused, partly because of an RC bias. (aside: we all fight bias)

No comment.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Paul E. Michael said:
certain people were from all eternity predestined to not burn in hell...

What verse teaches this? I must have missed this verse.

It's TULIP theology. To repudiate it is to repudiate TULIP theology. Did anyone say the Bible teaches it? I, for one, did not.

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

 

[GodsGrace]

You merely ASSUME that because God commanded something that man is capable of doing it … not seeking God without the IRRESISTIBLE DRAW of God. (“I have chosen you.” … a popular saying of God to men).

No. Let's understand each other.
Because God commands something does not mean man WILL DO IT.
But it means MAN IS CAPABLE of doing it, IF HE SO WISHED.

Back to my point....
Why would God command man to do something that God KNOWS IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR MAN TO DO.
It was NOT IMPOSSIBLE for Adam to refrain from eating the forbidden fruit.
Adam CHOSE to eat it.
The problem here is that you don't believe in free will.
Not believing in something the bible teaches causes much confusion. (as previously stated).

”BE YE HOLY AS GOD IS HOLY” … God commanded it, do people obey? Are some people perfectly Holy “AS GOD IS HOLY”? … Are people capable of doing it?

Where does the bible say to be holy as God is holy?

Do you mean be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect?
Matthew 5:48
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

No problem.
Do you think Jesus thought man would be perfect?
Of course not. Jesus knew the nature of man very well.

So it must mean something else.
Jesus was in the middle of preaching the beatitudes.
He meant to be perfect of heart as God Father is perfect...
in that, for instance, we should love our enemies and not only those who love us.
Be perfect, as a goal.

Which means, BTW, that God Father also loves the enemies of Him since God made us in His image.

 

[electedbyHim]

Mixing Calvinism with the doctrine of Christ, only perverts it the way Catholicism is the mixture of the teachings of man and the doctrine of Christ.


Christians follow Jesus Christ; obey His Gospel, obey His Doctrine, obey His commandments.

Those who remain in Christ are those who obey Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, and appeals to the flesh, teaching as commandments of men, making the word of God of no effect.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16





JLB

Calvinism is the doctrine of demons, and appeals to the flesh, teaching as commandments of men, making the word of God of no effect.

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. If you know anything about Calvinism or Reformed teaching it is all about Gods Sovereignty and His glory. These teachings do not appeal to the flesh in anyway as you say. The opposite is true.

I will tell you that your free will doctrine appeals to mans sinful pride and that is fact.

Now show us how free will brings glory to God and allows Him to be sovereign over salvation.

 

[electedbyHim]

You're disgusting.

That is exactly what your RC teaches, Fredy is not wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 10:29 said how they became His sheep (It was the Father’s choice and not the sheep’s) … Just like John 6:44 and John 6:65 said it was.

John 10:29 just refers back to John 6:44 and I've gone through this a few times now.

Also John 6:65
We are saved by grace.
It is a gift of God.
God gives these gifts to Jesus since it is Jesus who is the Savior of the World.

All men are called by God.
Those that respond with a yes, are given to the care of Jesus.