A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 all taught the same thing … you just “passed them over”.

I didn't pass ANYTHING over that you posted.

When are you going to reply to post no. 747?

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6 and John 10 and Romans 9 all taught the same thing … you just “passed them over”.

And I've said a few times now that you should start a new thread IN THEOLOGY or APOLOGETICS (either one)
and I'd be willing to GO OVER it with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I really don’t care what John Calvin taught. I never met the man. I never read his book. I arrived at NONE of my theology from his teaching. [The only point of TULIP that I was ’taught’ was L, and Calvin was wish washy on the L of TULIP … being only a 4-pointer, himself.]

From the hearsay, he seems to have said a LOT of things that the Bible also says.
However, in me, your crusade against a dead man falls on deaf ears, not because I defend Calvin but because I am indifferent to John’s teachings.

I know you believe this.

Here's the thing:

The reformed faith comes from Luther, Zilwig (?), Knox and Calvin - mainly, And it's called Calvinism because John Calvin was so instrumental in promoting those teachings. He must have been a real charmer with that beard and all.

So you might not like Calvin, but it's on Calvin's Institutes that your Confession is based.
And MAYBE, just maybe, you SHOULD know who Calvin is.

It's kind of like trying to learn about Catholicism and not know who the Pope is.

I like using the bible.
But there are so many discrepancies and illogical conclusions in Calvinism that I do like to point it out.

 

[brightfame52]

First you have not used and scripture, only scripture references with no actual content. You have only stated your opinion.


Judas Iscariot was drawn to Jesus and confirmed as a disciple, as well as promoted to an apostle, in which he was empowered and sent out to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the lost; cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers and raise the dead.


Judas Iscariot was a follower of Jesus Christ, then years later he became a traitor and was lost.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


He was the one thing, then he transgressed and became a traitor.



JLB

I have used scripture, I have multitudes of posts here with scripture verifying that what men calvinism in scoff, is the Gospel. I have multitudes of scripture that show mans total depravity. Do you want me to give you some more scriptural sources on these matters ?

 

[GodsGrace]

It's TULIP theology. To repudiate it is to repudiate TULIP theology. Did anyone say the Bible teaches it? I, for one, did not.

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

Hi Paul E. Michael
I've come to the conclusion that persons calling themselves calvinistists don't really know calvinism.

Yeah.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Hi Paul E. Michael
I've come to the conclusion that persons calling themselves calvinistists don't really know calvinism.

Yeah.

So you see how I just cornered Iconoclast, I take it.

 

[atpollard]

If God changes our heart so we could love Him,
it would be the epitomy of hypocrisy.
What value would that love have?
None.

Your statements confuse me sometimes … What do you mean “IF God changes our heart” …

• Ezekiel 36:26 [CSB] "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
• Philippians 2:13 [CSB] For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose.

… do you believe these Bible verses or don’t you? Neither John Calvin nor any Reformed Theologian wrote them.

 

[brightfame52]

It's TULIP theology. To repudiate it is to repudiate TULIP theology. Did anyone say the Bible teaches it? I, for one, did not.

Did God from all eternity predestine certain people to not burn in hell? Yes or No?

Yes, and He predestinated some from all eternity to go into the lake of fire for their sins, they are called the vessels of wrath who are fitted for destruction, and the others are called vessels of mercy prepared for glory. Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Yes

Take it up with Iconoclast. He says the Bible doesn't teach that:

Paul E. Michael said:
certain people were from all eternity predestined to not burn in hell...

What verse teaches this? I must have missed this verse.

 

[atpollard]

No. Let's understand each other.
Because God commands something does not mean man WILL DO IT.
But it means MAN IS CAPABLE of doing it, IF HE SO WISHED.

Matthew 5:48 [CSB] "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Is man “CAPABLE of doing it”?

 

[atpollard]

Those that respond with a yes, are given to the care of Jesus.

That is not what those verses say. You are redefining the words of John 6 and John 10 to fit your doctrine.

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

All men are called by God.

Thats false, the ones called by God according to His Salvation Purpose are Justified, and then Glorified, and were predestinated and foreknown Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[brightfame52]

Matthew 5:48 [CSB] "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Is man “CAPABLE of doing it”?

By Faith in Christ Yes, because He is Our Perfection, Righteousness, Sanctification before God 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Abraham was commanded the same thing Gen 17:1

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect

Its the walk of Faith, Christ is the Believers Perfection !

 

[brightfame52]

Take it up with Iconoclast. He says the Bible doesn't teach that:

A lot of people deny that Truth.

 

[atpollard]

So you might not like Calvin, but it's on Calvin's Institutes that your Confession is based.
And MAYBE, just maybe, you SHOULD know who Calvin is.

You should reread my post, because this is a non sequitur to what I said.

• I never said I dislike Calvin.
• “My Confession” is the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message which is neither Particular Baptist nor General Baptist. (So it is Calvinist/Arminian neutral).
• I know who John Calvin is.

All of your statements about my beliefs are false and none are based on what I actually said about Calvin and your personal obsession with his writings.

 

[atpollard]

I've come to the conclusion that persons calling themselves calvinistists don't really know calvinism.

… as you have taken it upon yourself to redefine “Calvinism the Strawman”.

 

[atpollard]

When are you going to reply to post no. 747?

I did (Post #782).

• I answered EVERY question you posted with a response supported by both exegesis and scripture.
• I did not refute your posted verses because I agree with the word of God.
• I did not argue with your stated opinions because opinions are like belly buttons … everyone has one.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

He predestinated some from all eternity to go into the lake of fire for their sins

For their sins? That's not what TULIP teaches. TULIP teaches that God predestinated some from all eternity to go into the lake of fire for His fiat.

God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

According to you, though, and contra-TULIP, something external to God caused Him to predestinate some people to burn in the lake of fire: viz., their sins. If their sins caused God to do that, then He did not do that freely.

 

[JLB]

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

Yes. I guess it’s quite shocking to actually encounter the truth when you have been used to the traditions of men for so long.

I never mentioned Sovereignty or free will yet you are so against the truth of the scriptures.


This is because the stronghold in your mind, constructed by the teachings of man is exalting itself against the knowledge from God.



Please answer my question.

Those who remain in Christ are those who obey Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question —

Do you believe we remain “in Christ” by obeying Him; by keeping His commandments?

If no then why?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have used scripture, I have multitudes of posts here with scripture verifying that what men calvinism in scoff, is the Gospel. I have multitudes of scripture that show mans total depravity. Do you want me to give you some more scriptural sources on these matters ?

Ok great.

Please answer my question from this scripture.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Question —

Do you believe we remain “in Christ” by obeying Him; by keeping His commandments?

If no then why?




JLB