A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Paul says he endures all things, so the elect may also obtain salvation.


I thought you said the elect were automatically saved, because they were the “elect”; those elected for salvation.


Why would Paul have to endure all things so that the elect would also obtain salvation, if the elect were already saved?


Obviously Paul did not agree with the idea that being elect = saved.




JLB

Exactly.
This is why it must mean something else.

 

[JLB]

This seems like it would apply equally to the "spirit" of a Calvinist as the "spirit" of a non-Calvinist. Which suggests that those claiming to become atheists because Calvinism left them no way to be sure that they were one of the ELECT, probably had a problem having nothing to do with Calvinism.

From your response, "The Spirit did not bear witness with their spirit that they were a child of God."
So what would your prognosis be of such a person? Do they have a bad understanding of some point of Theology?

The scripture I quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism or the ELECT, as they are not mentioned.


The context is about:

1. Those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. Those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but walk according to the Spirit.

If a person is living there life according to the Spirit, then the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.


Here is the context —


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (have eternal life). For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:1-16





JLB

 

[JLB]

Exactly.
This is why it must mean something else.

Yes, elect in this passage simply refers to the Jewish people, most of which rejected Jesus as Messiah.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

You're wasting your time telling me that you answered the questions I asked you since, as you well know, we can all see that you have never answered them.

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

brightfame52: <NO ANSWER>

The point is that you cannot answer these questions without embarrassing yourself, yet you embarrass yourself just the same by your stonewalling against them, and by your repeated farce of telling us you answered them. Whom do you think you're fooling, brightfame52?

Still showing you dont understand nor pay attention.

 

[JLB]

It was a good question, it just had nothing to do with "TOTAL DEPRAVITY" or Calvinism.

The whole Bible has nothing to do with Calvinism or Total Depravity because these are man made words from a man made doctrine, and have nothing to do with scripture.


Thanks for making my point.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Still showing you are lying through your teeth.

**Please stop deleting my posts without cause, brightfame52, or I will report you to stovebolts.**

Obviously you, yourself, don't think I have violated the TOS by accusing you of lying, brightfame52, since you, yourself, had previously accused me of lying:

Dont lie

Twice in this thread my posts have been deleted, and no explanation has been given to me as to how those posts were supposed to have been in violation of the TOS.

 

[brightfame52]

The whole Bible has nothing to do with Calvinism or Total Depravity because these are man made words from a man made doctrine, and have nothing to do with scripture.


Thanks for making my point.

Total Depravity is scriptural, you reject it under the guise of rejecting a man, but you are in reality rejecting what the bible teaches about the natural man.

 

[brightfame52]

Folks lets keep this thread on Total Depravity please, if you dont believe it, give your scriptural reasons why, if you do believe it, give your scriptural reasons why. Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did my post go, brightfame52?

wondering and JLB, since at least three of my posts have now been deleted from this thread, and no explanation has been given as to why that is so, or of in what way they are thought to have been in violation of the TOS, would you consider it reasonable and advisable for me to now notify stovebolts of said goings-on? It sure looks as though the "Calvinism Overseer" may be abusing his power to delete posts simply because they are unpleasant to him in his attempt to sell his TULIP theology.

I've already stated that this forum is not moderated and only has an overseer.
Please advise the owner if you have a complaint against the overseer so that your complaint can be handled.
You can use the PM feature or TALK WITH THE STAFF, but in that case be sure to tag him in.

 

[atpollard]

The scripture I quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with Calvinism or the ELECT, as they are not mentioned.

No, but the conversation that you jumped in the middle of about "the Elect" was all bout it ... this is the Calvinism section of the board in a topic on Total Depravity, so it seems appropriate.

 

[atpollard]

The whole Bible has nothing to do with Calvinism or Total Depravity because these are man made words from a man made doctrine, and have nothing to do with scripture.


Thanks for making my point.

Then you probably have no point to make HERE.
You have nothing to contribute but "Taint so" and bunny trails.
Why "thread crap" on the Calvinism forum? Are you just hateful of those you disagree with?

 

[JLB]

Total Depravity is scriptural, you reject it under the guise of rejecting a man, but you are in reality rejecting what the bible teaches about the natural man.

Can you please give a scripture where the phrase "Total Depravity" is found?

If you can't the the term "Total Depravity" is what we call an unscriptural term; not being from scripture.

Therefore it is manmade.

Would you consider Enoch as being totally depraved?

Noah, Abraham, Job, Moses, David, Joshua ?

And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy.

Were all these people Totally Depraved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, but the conversation that you jumped in the middle of about "the Elect" was all bout it ... this is the Calvinism section of the board in a topic on Total Depravity, so it seems appropriate.

If it seems appropriate to you then that is your choice.

 

[JLB]

Then you probably have no point to make HERE.

If you dont see my point then that is your choice.

 

[brightfame52]

Can you please give a scripture where the phrase "Total Depravity" is found?

If you can't the the term "Total Depravity" is what we call an unscriptural term; not being from scripture.

Therefore it is manmade.

Would you consider Enoch as being totally depraved?

Noah, Abraham, Job, Moses, David, Joshua ?

And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy.

Were all these people Totally Depraved?



JLB

I believe I have given you scripture on plenty of occasions. All men are sinners and dead to God in the spiritual sense, do you believe that ?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I've already stated that this forum is not moderated and only has an overseer.
Please advise the owner if you have a complaint against the overseer so that your complaint can be handled.
You can use the PM feature or TALK WITH THE STAFF, but in that case be sure to tag him in.

Thanks. But what I am wondering, wondering , is if you and/or JLB, and/or anyone else would even consider the concern I've expressed here to be a legitimate grievance, or of sufficient import to bother the owner with, or if I should just let it go. So far, at least four of my posts have been deleted from this thread with no explanation given me as to why...and in two of which I had tagged stovebolts. So the owner probably never even got a chance to see them. I won't be surprised if this post is deleted, too.

Well, anyway, sorry to keep pestering you about this. I don't want to seem too much like an imposition.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks. But what I am wondering, wondering , is if you and/or JLB, and/or anyone else would even consider the concern I've expressed here to be a legitimate grievance, or of sufficient import to bother the owner with, or if I should just let it go. So far, at least four of my posts have been deleted from this thread with no explanation given me as to why...and in two of which I had tagged stovebolts. So the owner probably never even got a chance to see them. I won't be surprised if this post is deleted, too.

Well, anyway, sorry to keep pestering you about this. I don't want to seem too much like an imposition.

Just do it.
The owner wants to know what's going on.
He'll help the overseer, not be upset with him.

 

[atpollard]

Were all these people Totally Depraved?

Yes, none of them were able to save themselves by living a HOLY life to the standard of God as Jesus did. That is what Total Depravity means … every part of the human being (mind, body, spirit) has been corrupted by the fall (Adamic Curse).

Not only them … ALL PEOPLE are Totally Depraved. Jesus (Son of God, God Incarnate, Second person of the triune Godhead) was the only BEING to escape Total Depravity and live a life that perfectly pleased God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, none of them were able to save themselves by living a HOLY life to the standard of God as Jesus did. That is what Total Depravity means … every part of the human being (mind, body, spirit) has been corrupted by the fall (Adamic Curse).

Not only them … ALL PEOPLE are Totally Depraved. Jesus (Son of God, God Incarnate, Second person of the triune Godhead) was the only BEING to escape Total Depravity and live a life that perfectly pleased God.

A, I do agree that we are born depraved. Every Christian believes this. We're affected by the fall in mind, body and spirit.

However, in reformed theology Total Depravity is the teaching that man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God.

The bible does teach that we are to seek God and we will find Him and God loves those who seek Him.

This idea of total depravity and the absence of free will cause every other reformed teaching to be necessary.

Since total depravity cannot be supported biblically
And
Man does have free will and this can be supported biblically, we say that the reformed faith is not biblical.

(Can post all the verses AGAIN)

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

However, in reformed theology Total Depravity is the teaching that man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God.

Which is True, man in his depraved condition by nature doesnt seek after God, doesnt understand God, the True God that is. And when it says man doesnt do it, its another way of saying he cant do it due to his condition

Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The word seeketh here in the greek is ekzēteō :

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

And its the same word seek that is a quality of True Faith here Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So man naturally doesnt and cant seek God, have Faith in God, thats how depraved we are by nature.