A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Alfred Persson]

The grandfather of Montezuma II, last king of the Aztec Empire, died 50 years before the Gospel arrived in Mexico. How did he obtain “sufficient light to be saved by grace through faith in Christ”?

It was appointed to him to die once, then the judgment whether he would accept Christ or not, after all his delusions and slavery to sin that prevented a free will choice, were purged by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning. See my post on post-mortem evangelization:

In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with...

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[atpollard]

It was appointed to him to die once, then the judgment whether he would accept Christ or not, after all his delusions and slavery to sin that prevented a free will choice, were purged by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning. See my post on post-mortem evangelization:

In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with...

christianforums.net

Or for a fuller treatment on my site:

Home | End Time News

Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

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You hold VERY heterodox (and probably contra-Biblical) beliefs.
Could you post just one verse in support of an actual post-mortem evangelization?
(I have no intention of chasing off to other blogs or videos to obtain a simple answer to a fundamental question.)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You hold VERY heterodox (and probably contra-Biblical) beliefs.
Could you post just one verse in support of an actual post-mortem evangelization?
(I have no intention of chasing off to other blogs or videos to obtain a simple answer to a fundamental question.)

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) , when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

Protestants evade the reference to "the answer of a good conscience" that saved us, as an antitype to that given by these "disbelieving" (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) "spirits in prison", hell.

They take the least likely meaning of "preached" (notice translations do not follow them), as meaning "proclaim".

Either way, that is "postmortem evangelization", preaching to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But their evasion is absurd:

As if Christ had to proclaim doom to spirits imprisoned in hell. I'm sure they could figure that out on their own.



My beliefs are Orthodox to 1st century New Testament Christianity, the only version of Christianity I love.

 

[brightfame52]

alfred

Although I acknowledge Total Depravity, "prevenient grace" extends salvation to the entire world so "whosoever believes" can be saved.

False statement

 

[atpollard]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) , when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

Protestants evade the reference to "the answer of a good conscience" that saved us, as an antitype to that given by these "disbelieving" (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) "spirits in prison", hell.

They take the least likely meaning of "preached" (notice translations do not follow them), as meaning "proclaim".

Either way, that is "postmortem evangelization", preaching to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But their evasion is absurd:

As if Christ had to proclaim doom to spirits imprisoned in hell. I'm sure they could figure that out on their own.



My beliefs are Orthodox to 1st century New Testament Christianity, the only version of Christianity I love.

I disagree with your conclusion, but I salute your presentation of a biblical case for your argument. You have, indeed, provided a biblical example of what could have been post-mortem evangelism (even if I embrace another explanation for what is happening in those events … more of an OT prophetic fulfillment to condemn the condemned and free the righteous).

 

[Fastfredy0]

As long as you keep referring to the Catholic Church in my regard, I will not reply to your posts.

If I've said something wrong, would a "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb," set things right?

 

[Hopeful]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) , when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-22 NKJ)

Protestants evade the reference to "the answer of a good conscience" that saved us, as an antitype to that given by these "disbelieving" (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) "spirits in prison", hell.

They take the least likely meaning of "preached" (notice translations do not follow them), as meaning "proclaim".

Either way, that is "postmortem evangelization", preaching to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But their evasion is absurd:

As if Christ had to proclaim doom to spirits imprisoned in hell. I'm sure they could figure that out on their own.



My beliefs are Orthodox to 1st century New Testament Christianity, the only version of Christianity I love.

All that explaining when the answer to the question is in 1 Peter 1:10-12.
The Spirit of the Lord taught those now dead about Christ, while they still were alive.

It is written..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into."

 

[Alfred Persson]

I disagree with your conclusion, but I salute your presentation of a biblical case for your argument. You have, indeed, provided a biblical example of what could have been post-mortem evangelism (even if I embrace another explanation for what is happening in those events … more of an OT prophetic fulfillment to condemn the condemned and free the righteous).

Thank you.

There are many other examples, in both OT and NT, but bias prevents their cumulative weight from overthrowing what essentially is a medieval construct of Hades.

I present the entire argument here, if nothing else it would be intellectually stimulating, forcing a more intense study of the Scripture:

https://endtimenews.net/does-the-bible-teach-a-second-chance/

But there are no second chances for the knowingly wicked, enemies of God.

The second chance is reserved for those who, because of the delusion deception and power of sin in this realm, or because they never heard the gospel accurately enough to believe it, really didn't have a fair shot at believing the gospel of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Thank you.

There are many other examples, in both OT and NT, but bias prevents their cumulative weight from overthrowing what essentially is a medieval construct of Hades.

I present the entire argument here, if nothing else it would be intellectually stimulating, forcing a more intense study of the Scripture:

https://endtimenews.net/does-the-bible-teach-a-second-chance/

But there are no second chances for the knowingly wicked, enemies of God.

The second chance is reserved for those who, because of the delusion deception and power of sin in this realm, really didn't have a fair shot at believing the gospel of Christ.

So for them, Jesus' death didn't matter.
While by His suffering and death the believers were granted repentance from sin and rebirth, among other things.

To conclude that anyone didn't get a fair shot at their own salvation is ludicrous.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So for them, Jesus' death didn't matter.
While by His suffering and death the believers were granted repentance from sin and rebirth, among other things.

To conclude that anyone didn't get a fair shot at their own salvation is ludicrous.

So those who died before Christ was born, got a fair shot at believing the gospel?

According to you, "No".

According to me, Christ's Death is all that matters!

Everyone born into this world, including Adam and Eve, can only be saved because of Christ's sacrifice. They learned about it when they died once, during the Judgment.

Christ appeared at the end of time, to put away sin for all time, past present and future. No one is saved apart from Christ, apart from faith. Even Moses was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb who took away the sins of the entire Kosmos (world).

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (2889 κόσμος kosmos). (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

16 "For God so loved the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) to condemn the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos), but that the world (2889 κόσμος kosmos) through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18 NKJ)

In John 3:16-18 "world" (2889 κόσμος kosmos) appears four times, contrasting the kosmos from whence God’s Son came with "the kosmos of humanity." Therefore, it is impossible His Son saved only some in the kosmos --- excluding all born before Christ came or didn’t hear the Gospel of Christ after the 1st century.

Why? Because that is like saying God sent His Son to save the house, but He didn't save the basement. The basement is part of the house just like the other rooms.

God sent His Son to save the entire kosmos (Jn. 1:9, 29; 4:42; Rm. 5:10; 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:19) whether living or dead (Jn. 5:24-25, 28-29; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Pt. 4:6) , all born into it since the world began. (Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:24-26; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:9-10; 8:32)

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Col. 1:19-20 NKJ)

"Things on earth" are humans, therefore "things in heaven" are humans in heaven waiting for resurrection. Not angels. All the patriarchs etc. in heaven, were reconciled to God by the blood of Christ.

Everyone saved since the foundation of the world owes their salvation to the blood of Christ. There is no salvation apart from Christ:

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

So for them, Jesus' death didn't matter.
While by His suffering and death the believers were granted repentance from sin and rebirth, among other things.

To conclude that anyone didn't get a fair shot at their own salvation is ludicrous.

The Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

Notice the book of life, the names in it are completely dependent upon the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

We know Christ was slain in the first century. So how did His appearance "once at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) cover all born since the foundation of the world? His sacrifice is "timeless", part of God's plan even before He created all things.

So, the moment God decided to create, the "lamb was slain"---the "timeline" where Christ would die for our sins, came into existence.

God wouldn't have created without a way to save all who are His. Christ is the Way, the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father, apart from Him.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)

His sacrifice is all that matters, to everyone.

 

[Hopeful]

So those who died before Christ was born, got a fair shot at believing the gospel?

Yes, a coming Messiah.
Noah, Abraham, Jacob, and all the rest knew that one day the Christ would come to save them from their enemies...the worst of which was sin.

According to you, "No".

I disagree.
Especially since it is written of in 1 Peter 1.

According to me, Christ's Death is all that matters!
Everyone born into this world, including Adam and Eve, can only be saved because of Christ's sacrifice. They learned about it when they died once, during the Judgment.

Those living before the Law will be judged on the consciences, as they had no Law.
Those under the Law will be saved if they adhered to it, including its atonements for sin.
We of the NT will be saved if we turn from sin and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and then live faithfully until our ends.

Christ appeared at the end of time, to put away sin for all time, past present and future.

Only if the man will truly repents will he be saved.

No one is saved apart from Christ, apart from faith.

Agreed, which makes it a ludicrous proposition that men who refused Christ while living will be saved.

Even Moses was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb who took away the sins of the entire Kosmos (world).

False.
Moses' sins were remitted by the works of the Law's days of atonement.

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (2889 κόσμος kosmos). (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

Amen, if they repent or sin and have their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ at their water baptism into Him, and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)

In John 3:16-18 "world" (2889 κόσμος kosmos) appears four times, contrasting the kosmos from whence God’s Son came with "the kosmos of humanity." Therefore, it is impossible His Son saved only some in the kosmos --- excluding all born before Christ came or didn’t hear the Gospel of Christ after the 1st century.

Your misinterpretation of scripture only accommodates more sin while living and walking in darkness.
Get right now, or perish.

Why? Because that is like saying God sent His Son to save the house, but He didn't save the basement. The basement is part of the house just like the other rooms.

No. more like "He came to save the house, but not the one destroyed on the site before the house could be built on that lot".

God sent His Son to save the entire kosmos (Jn. 1:9, 29; 4:42; Rm. 5:10; 8:32; 2 Cor. 5:19) whether living or dead (Jn. 5:24-25, 28-29; Heb. 9:27-28; 1 Pt. 4:6) , all born into it since the world began. (Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:24-26; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:9-10; 8:32)

Too bad so may have, and will, reject the offer.

"Things on earth" are humans, therefore "things in heaven" are humans in heaven waiting for resurrection. Not angels. All the patriarchs etc. in heaven, were reconciled to God by the blood of Christ.
Everyone saved since the foundation of the world owes their salvation to the blood of Christ. There is no salvation apart from Christ:

Too bad so many are "apart from Christ".
They have only a lake of fire in their future.

 

[Hopeful]

The Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

Notice the book of life, the names in it are completely dependent upon the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

We know Christ was slain in the first century. So how did His appearance "once at the end of the ages" (Heb. 9:26) cover all born since the foundation of the world? His sacrifice is "timeless", part of God's plan even before He created all things.

So, the moment God decided to create, the "lamb was slain"---the "timeline" where Christ would die for our sins, came into existence.

God wouldn't have created without a way to save all who are His. Christ is the Way, the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father, apart from Him.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (Jn. 14:6 NKJ)

His sacrifice is all that matters, to everyone.

Too bad so many would rather follow satan into the flames of the lake of fire.

 

[Alfred Persson]

False.
Moses' sins were remitted by the works of the Law's days of atonement.

16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal. 2:16 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal. 2:16 NKJ)

Who were Paul's audience?
OT Jews or NT Christians?
If the atonements of the Law were insufficient to save, then no Jew from the post Moses world will go to heaven.
Sinners aren't going there, so the OT had days of atonement.
There is no justification under the Law, but there are atonements.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Who were Paul's audience?
OT Jews or NT Christians?
If the atonements of the Law were insufficient to save, then no Jew from the post Moses world will go to heaven.
Sinners aren't going there, so the OT had days of atonement.
There is no justification under the Law, but there are atonements.

Incorrect. Christ's sacrifice covers all the OT saints, even Adam and Eve. It doesn't cover wicked people, or enemies of God who know what they are doing. They die the death, the second death from which there is no return.

By the way, Jesus and the apostles were all Jews, that didn't change. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. Christ fulfilled it in the 1st century:

24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. (Dan. 9:24 NKJ)

Christ's sacrifice "finished the transgression, made an end of sin, reconciled for iniquity and brought in everlasting righteousness. The promised Messiah came, Jesus Christ, He is the Most Holy that was anointed.

18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." (Lk. 4:18-21 NKJ)

The 70 weeks end during the time of Christ, entering Jerusalem on a donkey is a key event predicted:

4 All this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
5 "Tell the daughter of Zion,`Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.'"
6 So the disciples went and did as Jesus commanded them.
7 They brought the donkey and the colt, laid their clothes on them, and set Him on them.
8 And a very great multitude spread their clothes on the road; others cut down branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David!`Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' Hosanna in the highest!"
10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?"
11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." (Matt. 21:4-11 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

Incorrect. Christ's sacrifice covers all the OT saints, even Adam and Eve. It doesn't cover wicked people, or enemies of God who know what they are doing. They die the death, the second death from which there is no return.

How did those people get the atoning blood of Christ applied to their repentant bodies?
As Jesus had not yet bled and died, it could not be applied to them.
If the OT's folks could have been saved by Christ, there would have been no reason for Him to come to earth for anyone.

 

[brightfame52]

We believe that the Scriptures teach man is totally depraved: that man by nature will not seek after God.

Ps 14:2-3

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We have the sacred testimony from both testaments, so its a full witness

So man by nature doesnt ever seek after God, because he is filthy and cannot, there is no difference in will not and cannot in Gods economy, this is a spiritual deficiency

Please keep in mind that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures which are the revealed word of God. 2 Tim 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Alfred Persson]

We believe that the Scriptures teach man is totally depraved: that man by nature will not seek after God.

Ps 14:2-3

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We have the sacred testimony from both testaments, so its a full witness

So man by nature doesnt ever seek after God, because he is filthy and cannot, there is no difference in will not and cannot in Gods economy, this is a spiritual deficiency

Please keep in mind that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures which are the revealed word of God. 2 Tim 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Although what I will say does not contradict "Total Depravity", it does your exegesis of the scripture. The context is about man's "understanding", they have become "filthy" in reasoning, "none righteous", "all gone out of the way"....

"None seeketh [the true] God".

We know from history man is very religious, until modern times Atheism almost unknown. To say man doesn't seek God is contradicted by the facts of history, AND both the Psalmist and Paul knew that very well.

Man in his dark evil understanding, flees from the light of the True God, inventing a god more to his liking.

AND It is said, "There are no Atheists in a foxhole." They begin seeking god very fervently at that time, zealously. But, in conformity with Total Depravity, they are not seeking the God of the Bible.


Ps 14:2-3

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Too bad so many would rather follow satan into the flames of the lake of fire.

Too bad so many ignore mind-boggling thought-provoking revelation:

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8 NKJ)

To us finite creatures living in time and space, Christ was slain in the 1st century. But from God's timeless perspective, the moment He decided to create "the lamb was slain".

Here's another text similarly contrasting God's timeless perspective to ours. From God's perspective, we already sit with Him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, but from our spacetime perspective, we won't know the reality of it until the "ages to come"

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2:4-10 NKJ)

Paul is a critical thinker. To Him God's timeless perspective was another "proof" we are saved by grace through faith, and that "not of yourselves." From the foundation of the world, when the Lamb was slain, we were saved.

But its not "actualized" in spacetime until we believe in Christ, "through faith." Faith that God gave us, because we are His workmanship. So even the faith, is "not of yourselves."