A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[Butch5]

Question: Were Jesus and the apostles able to establish the Christian faith?

 

[BornAgain]

Question: Were Jesus and the apostles able to establish the Christian faith?

The Christian faith is founded on Jesus Christ and His resurrection. Before the New Testament gospels were even written, the early Christian leaders stated their belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus through a statement of belief known as a creed. The earliest record of the Christian creed is presented by Paul and found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. I am not sure if this is correct, just my knowledge....

 

[Butch5]

The Christian faith is founded on Jesus Christ and His resurrection. Before the New Testament gospels were even written, the early Christian leaders stated their belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus through a statement of belief known as a creed. The earliest record of the Christian creed is presented by Paul and found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. I am not sure if this is correct, just my knowledge....

Hi Born Again,

My question was almost rhetoical. I suspect that every Christian would say yes. It was the foundation of another question.

 

[Butch5]

Question: Were Jesus and the apostles able to establish the Christian faith?

I'm going to guess that every Christian will answer yes to this question. That leads to another question. If they were able to establish the Christian faith then those who they taught must have understood their teachings. So then, we should be able to look to the students of Jesus and the apostles and their students to see what they taught. When we do this we find that universally they taught that water baptism was the point at which one's sins were remitted and they received the Spirit, just as we see with Jesus at His baptism. So we have the first Christians teaching that water baptism was the point at which sins were forgiven and the Holy Spirit was given. They were either right or wrong. If they were right then this is the historic Christian faith. If they were wrong it means that the faith as taught by Jesus and the apostles was immediately lost after their deaths and that the entire church went astray. If this is the case then one must change their answer to the first question, were Jesus and the apostles able to establish the Christian faith? If all of these early Christians were wrong then the answer to the first question must be no. If mere men such as Calvin, Luther, Darby, etc. can espouse systems of doctrine that have lasted hundreds of years is anyone willing to say that the Jesus and the apostles filled with the Holy Spirit weren't able to establish a faith that would last even one generation?

Given these facts we've got to ask ourselves are we going to believe the doctrines of men or are we going to believe the historic Christian faith?

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

The issue with those who do not believe in healing is not about the Holy Spirit. Its because they do not believe the gospel! If they did they would know that Our Lord Jesus, took upon Himself our sins and sickness. These same people are trying to EARN their way to heaven. The fact that God gave us the VERY BEST He had in Christ has never become real to them.

Rom 8:32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


Rom 14:17

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
I tell you that until you are "in the Holy Ghost" you are not in the Kingdom of God. - Mitspa:biglol

Mitspa, what a great revelation! I will be keeping an eye on your posts ;)
This actually explains a lot!! I've had an epiphany haha!

The repentant thief on the cross wasn't baptised. But he did exercise saving faith.

Farouk, nope your wrong he's going to hell because he forgot to get baptized in water. He should've asked Jesus or the guards for more time or a cup of water at the least! What a waste... I feel so bad for him as faith isn't enough anymore, there is a new list of requirements for salvation. (Sarcastic)

 

[smaller]

I'm going to guess that every Christian will answer yes to this question. That leads to another question. If they were able to establish the Christian faith then those who they taught must have understood their teachings. So then, we should be able to look to the students of Jesus and the apostles and their students to see what they taught. When we do this we find that universally they taught that water baptism was the point at which one's sins were remitted and they received the Spirit, just as we see with Jesus at His baptism. So we have the first Christians teaching that water baptism was the point at which sins were forgiven and the Holy Spirit was given. They were either right or wrong. If they were right then this is the historic Christian faith. If they were wrong it means that the faith as taught by Jesus and the apostles was immediately lost after their deaths and that the entire church went astray. If this is the case then one must change their answer to the first question, were Jesus and the apostles able to establish the Christian faith? If all of these early Christians were wrong then the answer to the first question must be no. If mere men such as Calvin, Luther, Darby, etc. can espouse systems of doctrine that have lasted hundreds of years is anyone willing to say that the Jesus and the apostles filled with the Holy Spirit weren't able to establish a faith that would last even one generation?

Given these facts we've got to ask ourselves are we going to believe the doctrines of men or are we going to believe the historic Christian faith?

The orthodox (of which there are many flavors) make the same case.

I'd consider that a factual study of even early churches reveals many divisions.

Look at the produce today. Many divisions.

And the sects are largely cheerleaders for their doctrinal positions of numerous sorts just like democrats or republicans or those who drink Miller Lite some of whom say tastes great and others say less filling.

Divisions serve to indicate that the believers themselves are divided and can not agree on much, except in the general sense.

On this particular subject the variations are predominantly used to condemn other believers who do not do the same as their particular sect does.

If there is one common doctrine left today amongst all the sects it is this:

They all nearly to the last sect condemn other believers. This is in fact the common doctrine.

Quite a pity, really.

If one observes the 7 churches of the Revelation, written during John the Apostles time, all 7 had the works of Satan transpiring within them.

Now, go find ONE sect today that 'hears' what the Spirit is saying in this regards. Do any of them acknowledge that fact? No. They all think they have only PERFECT doctrines and the other sects not.

The range of acceptance in the scriptures as far as who and what are pleasing to God in Christ is exceptionally diverse from the very simple to the very complex.

It all depends on the focus of reflections in the hearts of the individuals.

Paul himself did not place a great deal of emphasis on baptism from his own participation standpoint, stating outright that he himself baptized just a very very few.

There are measures to be observed on Pharisees and lawyers actions:

Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What I have learned is after you are baptized your receive the gift of the Holy Spirit but you can lose that salvation if you turn from God and sin.

But does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved?

I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit so does that mean I am lost?

 

[Sparkey]

But does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved?

I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit so does that mean I am lost?

No. The Promise of the Father is given to believers, not unbelievers.

 

[Eventide]

Christ in you..

But does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved?

I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit so does that mean I am lost?

Being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ IS being saved.. that's what being BORN AGAIN is.. that's what circumcision of the heart is.. that's what being SEALED with the Holy Spirit is.. that's what being baptized into that one body by the SPIRIT is..

So are you saying that you do not have CHRIST in you ? IMO if you did you would KNOW that.. perhaps not immediately upon it taking place but not too long afterwards.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No. The Promise of the Father is given to believers, not unbelievers.

Since you correctly answered "no" that would mean baptism with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with the salvation of Cornelius. So Cornelius was saved by some other means than baptism with the Holy Spirit namely water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Acts 10:47,48 cf Acts 2:38.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

Being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ IS being saved.. that's what being BORN AGAIN is.. that's what circumcision of the heart is.. that's what being SEALED with the Holy Spirit is.. that's what being baptized into that one body by the SPIRIT is..

So are you saying that you do not have CHRIST in you ? IMO if you did you would KNOW that.. perhaps not immediately upon it taking place but not too long afterwards.

I am asking does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirt to be saved?

Or if one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit is he lost?

 

[BornAgain]

But does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved?

I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit so does that mean I am lost?

No....

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

I am asking does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirt to be saved?

Or if one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit is he lost?

And I'm asking if you KNOW that Christ is in you or not.. that's the bottom line, because without the Spirit of CHRIST in you, then you are NOT His.. simple as that.

So absolutely YES.. without the Spirit of Christ you are in your natural Adamic state.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Re: Christ in you..

I am asking does one have to be baptized with the Holy Spirt to be saved?

Or if one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit is he lost?

It's best you read the Bible for yourself. Maybe people get confused when they rely on others opinons rather than the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Was the thief on the cross baptized in water or the Holy Spirit?

And I'm asking if you KNOW that Christ is in you or not.. that's the bottom line, because without the Spirit of CHRIST in you, then you are NOT His.. simple as that.

So absolutely YES.. without the Spirit of Christ you are in your natural Adamic state.

I agree, without the Spirit inside us we are lost and going to hell apart from God.

 

[Butch5]

The orthodox (of which there are many flavors) make the same case.

I'd consider that a factual study of even early churches reveals many divisions.

Look at the produce today. Many divisions.

And the sects are largely cheerleaders for their doctrinal positions of numerous sorts just like democrats or republicans or those who drink Miller Lite some of whom say tastes great and others say less filling.

Divisions serve to indicate that the believers themselves are divided and can not agree on much, except in the general sense.

On this particular subject the variations are predominantly used to condemn other believers who do not do the same as their particular sect does.

If there is one common doctrine left today amongst all the sects it is this:

They all nearly to the last sect condemn other believers. This is in fact the common doctrine.

Quite a pity, really.

If one observes the 7 churches of the Revelation, written during John the Apostles time, all 7 had the works of Satan transpiring within them.

Now, go find ONE sect today that 'hears' what the Spirit is saying in this regards. Do any of them acknowledge that fact? No. They all think they have only PERFECT doctrines and the other sects not.

The range of acceptance in the scriptures as far as who and what are pleasing to God in Christ is exceptionally diverse from the very simple to the very complex.

It all depends on the focus of reflections in the hearts of the individuals.

Paul himself did not place a great deal of emphasis on baptism from his own participation standpoint, stating outright that he himself baptized just a very very few.

There are measures to be observed on Pharisees and lawyers actions:

Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves

s

Hi Smaller,

That doesn't answer the question. The necessity of waster baptism was taught all the way up to the Reformation. It's only been in the last 500 years that people have questioned the necessity of water baptism. I however, am only dealing with those first Christians because they were taught by Jesus and the apostles. If you look at the writings of the earliest church period, the Ante-Nicene period you will find that the first Christians were untied in this belief. Since it was what was originally taught it must be assumed that it is the same thing that was taught by Jesus and the apostles, thus it is the historic Christian faith.

I believe that one of the biggest problems in the church today, at least the American church is the attitude of Americans. "I'm an American and I have a right to my opinion." What many fail to realize is that while they do have a right to their opinion, their having that right doesn't make their opinion correct. I think pride is the biggest problem in the American church and I don't think Christians realize how that pride is destroying them and the church. God said it is a humble and contrite heart that He will look upon.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No....

I agree. Therefore the baptism that saves, the one baptism of Eph 4:5 is NOT baptism with the Holy Spirit but the baptism of the great commission which is water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.


So being baptized with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' salvation.

 

[Butch5]

Re: Christ in you..

It's best you read the Bible for yourself. Maybe people get confused when they rely on others opinons rather than the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Was the thief on the cross baptized in water or the Holy Spirit?

He may have been baptised in water having heard John the Baptist's preaching and he may have been baptized by Jesus apostles at some point in His minstry. He wasn't, however, baptized in the Holy Spirit as the Spirit had not yet been given.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

And I'm asking if you KNOW that Christ is in you or not.. that's the bottom line, because without the Spirit of CHRIST in you, then you are NOT His.. simple as that.

So absolutely YES.. without the Spirit of Christ you are in your natural Adamic state.

So you answered "yes" to my questions. Yet being baptized with the Holy Spirit is something only God can do, it is something that is out of my control.

Water batpism was commanded so I can choose to obey that command or not and I will be held accountalbe to if I obey it or not. Yet baptism with the Holy SPirit was not soemthing commanded to man, so it is not something man can choose to obey, man cannot choose to submit to this baptism for only God administered thsi baptism to whom He chose to.


Therefore if I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and am lost then God is at fault for failing to baptize me with the Holy Spirit. So the idea one must be baptized with the Holy Spirit must be rejected for it makes God culpable for the lost.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Christ in you..

It's best you read the Bible for yourself. Maybe people get confused when they rely on others opinons rather than the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Was the thief on the cross baptized in water or the Holy Spirit?



I agree, without the Spirit inside us we are lost and going to hell apart from God.

As Butch already posted, the thief may have been water baptized, Mark 1:5.



Was the eunuch lost since he was only water baptized in Acts 8?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

So you answered "yes" to my questions. Yet being baptized with the Holy Spirit is something only God can do, it is something that is out of my control.

No kidding.. imo it's pretty ridiculous to think or believe that you can place yourself into the body of Christ.. and yet many in Christendom actually believe that.. the RCC certainly does.. and evidently your assembly does as well.

Water batpism was commanded so I can choose to obey that command or not and I will be held accountalbe to if I obey it or not. Yet baptism with the Holy SPirit was not soemthing commanded to man, so it is not something man can choose to obey, man cannot choose to submit to this baptism for only God administered thsi baptism to whom He chose to.

Although according to Eph 1:13 (a scripture which you apparently reject), it is after a person TRUSTS in Christ and AFTER they do believe that they are sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT.

Therefore if I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit and am lost then God is at fault for failing to baptize me with the Holy Spirit. So the idea one must be baptized with the Holy Spirit must be rejected for it makes God culpable for the lost.

If you'd like to consider yourself lost because you couldn't control placing yourself into the body of Christ... then so be it.. imo it's just that religious pride which can't see anything but what their one true church tells them is so.