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A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

Re: REALITY

Many years ago I was in the church of Christ for a short time and it was their ridiculous claims concerning water baptism which resulted in me leaving that assembly.

I was told that they are the one true church.

I was told that my baptism in another assembly of believers didn't count, so I was baptized again in their assembly just to be obedient to what they taught...

Then the final straw was a movie in which they clearly taught that those who were not baptized in their assembly would burn in hell for ever..

This is reality people.. this is what actually happened to me.. and many people were saying AMEN at the top of their voices as if this was the Spirit of God.. burning people for ever because they were not baptized in the church of Christ.. their so called one true church.

Sorry for hearing that and that sounds like a bad experience. At least I know where you are coming from now. The church I attend has never forced baptism or said we would burn in hell if we didn't. I can see your point now...That was NEVER taught in the church I attend or they are the "one true church", ever. Just fellowship and love. Nobody forced anybody to do anything.

I guess I am just passionate about it and believe in it because that is what scripture says...there is a lot of confusion about baptism though. Not saying I am right or wrong, just saying what I believe to be true.
 
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Re: REALITY

Sorry for hearing that and that sounds like a bad experience. At least I know where you are coming from now. The church I attend has never forced baptism or said we would burn in hell if we didn't. I can see your point now...

I guess I am just passionate about it and believe in it because that is what scripture says...there is a lot of confusion about baptism though. Not saying I am right or wrong, just saying what I believe to be true.

It only takes a few minutes to find out the 'hot buttons' in any assembly.

Those promotions used to divide from other believers and to condemn other believers to possibly burn alive forever.

If we wonder why the world is so sick we only need to look under our own church roofs and if we desire a real look, we take a look inside ourselves.

s
 
Re: REALITY

It only takes a few minutes to find out the 'hot buttons' in any assembly.

Those promotions used to divide from other believers and to condemn other believers to possibly burn alive forever.

If we wonder why the world is so sick we only need to look under our own church roofs and if we desire a real look, we take a look inside ourselves.

s

That is true. Sometimes we do have to look under our roofs, only to see the truth.
 
Re: REALITY

It only takes a few minutes to find out the 'hot buttons' in any assembly.

Those promotions used to divide from other believers and to condemn other believers to possibly burn alive forever.

If we wonder why the world is so sick we only need to look under our own church roofs and if we desire a real look, we take a look inside ourselves.

s

We should lighten this up and start a thread in the games and jokes humor and ask questions like, Are you smarter than a fifth grader? I bet I would beat you!
 
Re: REALITY

It only takes a few minutes to find out the 'hot buttons' in any assembly.

Those promotions used to divide from other believers and to condemn other believers to possibly burn alive forever.

If we wonder why the world is so sick we only need to look under our own church roofs and if we desire a real look, we take a look inside ourselves.

s

Started a new thread in games, let's see if you can answer a true or false question and you get to ask the next.
 
Re: REALITY

QUOTE=smaller;695870]Will pass but thanks.

s[/QUOTE]

:)
 
Re: Ephesians 1:13

You said, "given on your trip to salvation"

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior," Titus 3:5-6

Are you sealed? Have you asked Him to pour it on you? Sounds like a sure way to know ;) Overflowing with the Spirit can only be good, just read about what happens in the Bible when it does! If you don't believe in this verse, that He pours it on us. Then maybe you don't even believe we can be saved?

The way you write it just sounds like its a saved by works sort of thing. Baptism is ultimately making your transformation public to the rest of the world, which we are commanded to do, but isn't required for salvation!


Hi Justin,

Water baptism is a requirement from Scriptures. I was also taught that it was a public display, however, look for a statement saying as much in the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't say that baptism is a public display. If you study this issue in the Scriptures you'll find that water baptism is tied to eternal life.
 
Re: Ephesians 1:13

Hi Justin,

Water baptism is a requirement from Scriptures. I was also taught that it was a public display, however, look for a statement saying as much in the Scriptures. The Scriptures don't say that baptism is a public display. If you study this issue in the Scriptures you'll find that water baptism is tied to eternal life.

Hi Butch,

Are we in agreement that water baptism is a command in order to obtain eternal life, dis-regarding public display?
 
Methodology and hermeneutics (just a fancy word for a consistent approach to interpretation) are important so that you are not throwing around interpretations carelessly with no thought. If I were to give a one line question "Are 1 Corinthians 12:13 and Acts 1 talking of the same baptism?" I would get the same replies I've seen in many other threads, many with a lot of claims and little exegesis to back it up. Most people merge ideas in their mind because of their denominational beliefs or other assumptions about Scripture that they grew up with, and knowingly or unknowingly bring that interpretation to their reading of Scripture. That to an extent is unavoidable but that isn't an excuse not to do good exegesis (especially reading the text in context).

Welcome to the wonderful world of internet Bible forums!
 
Re: Ephesians 1:13

Hi Butch,

Are we in agreement that water baptism is a command in order to obtain eternal life, dis-regarding public display?

Yes, however, let me qualify that statement. God can save anyone He chooses to save. He has promised however, to save the one who believes and is baptized.
 
Re: Ephesians 1:13

Yes, however, let me qualify that statement. God can save anyone He chooses to save. He has promised however, to save the one who believes and is baptized.

Like you said, "welcome to the world of internet bible forums." Don't stop with your study...let us work together and support and encourage one another.
 
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"Since" or "When" (... you believed) ??

When Paul was in Ephesus finding certain disciples, did he ask them if they received the Holy Ghost when they believed? No, Paul asked them "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" The difference here reveals the five foolish virgins that have yet to trim their lamps with the oil of the Holy Ghost. No matter how that verse is translated, the meaning remains the same.

But many teach that speaking with tongues is necessary or you haven't been baptized with the Holy Ghost. They don't simply state that speaking in tongues is a sign of the Holy Ghost like other spiritual gifts, including love. They think that speaking in tongues is the ONLY proof. The worst of them then start to think that speaking in tongues is a badge of honor.

Here then is what we know:
"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the holy Ghost. FOR they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God."
[Acts 10:45, 46]

The debate over allowing water Baptism for Gentiles was settled once and for all when Peter saw that they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost. He heard them speak in tongues and magnify God and this was proof enough for him to declare, "And as I began to speak, the holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye SHALL BE baptized with the holy Ghost."
[Acts 11:15,16]

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" [Jn. 7:38,39]

Attempts to change the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from an event worth seeking and waiting for into something that happens "automatically" at the time of "conversion" are not supported in the bible.

SIMON THE SORCERER
Some may want to say that only the Apostles were "baptized" in the Holy Ghost at the start of their ministry. Others will wish to say that it is by the laying of hands of the Apostles (only) that Christians can be baptized in the Holy Ghost. We can find some evidence for this view if we examine the Scriptures about what Simon the Sorcerer wanted to purchase. Surely, he was not offering money for nothing or for something he already had: "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." - [Acts 8:14-19 KJV] Of course Simon was chastised and told to repent (in no uncertain terms) but the point that it was by the laying of hands that the Holy Ghost was given is not supported in our many examples.

SAUL OF TARSUS (PAUL)
Still, some may argue that Paul was baptized in the Holy Spirit accompanied by the laying of hands by Ananias. Let's look: "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized." - [Acts 9:17-18 KJV]

I cannot prove that Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit before his baptism (in water). In other words, I cannot claim it is a necessary inference -- a likely inference but not a necessary one. Still, there are other examples to look at before we can conclude the matter.

What about the Gentles?
Does the Bible mention "laying of hands" when they were filled? Peter was speaking and telling how God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power... "[and] while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." - [Acts 10:38, 44-48 KJV]

Later, Peter told those in Jerusalem about it, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." - [Acts 11:15-18 KJV]

We see that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was not restricted to Apostles only, that this was what was called "The Promise of the Father", spoken of by Joel, and although the laying of hands is Scriptural it is not be demanded in every case. Again, it is not a necessary inference. Some may come and say that it is only through an apostle that the Holy Spirit can be given. But this eisegesis also fails because we see that the Promise of the Father was given to "even as many as the Lord shall call..." "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." - [Acts 2:38-39 KJV]

THE GOSPELS:
Mat 3:11 (NIV) [John the Baptist:] I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 (NIV) I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 11:11-13 (NIV) [Jesus:] "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Luke 24:49 (NIV) "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 7:38-39 (NIV) "Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive...

THE RISEN CHRIST DECLARED: Acts 1:5,8 (NIV) "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit... But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you..."
 
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Re: "Since" or "When" (... you believed) ??

When Paul was in Ephesus finding certain disciples, did he ask them if they received the Holy Ghost when they believed? No, Paul asked them "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" The difference here reveals the five foolish virgins that have yet to trim their lamps with the oil of the Holy Ghost. No matter how that verse is translated, the meaning remains the same.

One paragraph at a time...show me scripture that says this please.
 
The context there is the disciples of John, who had not been present when the Spirit came at Pentecost.
 
Paul asked the disciples of John the Baptist this in Acts 19:2

He was told that they had not heard anything about the Holy Ghost. So Paul explained some things and then baptized them for a second time (only this time, in the name of Jesus). Afterward, when he laid his hands on them, they received the Holy Ghost!

Many professing Christians have never heard this because most ministers do not believe this Bible experience is for people today. However, regardless of the theology or doctrines that most ministers have been instructed to teach, the question above should be asked of every professing Christian today. Those who are truly independent thinking Bible students will search it out for themselves in the scriptures, and will find out what the Bible has to say about this matter.

Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5, "... Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 8:9 tells us, "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

.

How does one know when they receive the Holy Ghost?

Some ministers teach that the Holy Spirit is received "automatically" ... with no apparent outward manifestation ... when a person "believes" and accepts Christ as their personal Savior. However, in Acts 8:12-17, we read about people who believed, yet they had NOT received the Holy Spirit.

.

Acts Chapter 8

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

.

And again, some teach that the Holy Spirit is received "automatically" ... with no apparent outward manifestation ... at the same time a person is baptized in water. However, in Acts 8:12-17 (as shown above), & Acts 19:1-6 we read about those who received the Holy Spirit AFTER being baptized... but in Acts 10:44-48 we read about others who received the Holy Spirit BEFORE being baptized.

NOTE: (I did a google lookup for the Scripture "Since you believed" then cut-n-pasted from http://www.impact-ministry.com/acts2/believed.html) because I thought it answered your question very well.
 
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