A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

And as mentioned E, if you can't see (or more importantly KNOW) that Christ is in you, then you shouldn't be in a Christian forum arguing your position here... which is sheer nonsense.. that the HOLY SPIRIT is not given today ? ? ?

E or anyone else that I have seen has NEVER SAID the HS is not given today, what you have been shown, and fail to prove otherwise (other than you opinion) is that the HS is given today in the portion you say YOU got.

If baptism of the HS is what you say you got (an it has not been proven scriptural to have been done by anyone but Jesus and only to the Apostles and the House of Cornelius) then show one scripture that this HS baptism can save you or anyone else?

If the baptism of the HS saved the house of Cornelius then why 3 verses after this baptism did Peter command them to be baptized with water if they were already saved?

 

[Webb]

To say someone is unregenerated is the same as saying that someone is lost, unsaved etc. I thought it was against the rules of the forum to do such. Even if not, it indicates the one making the accusation realiazes he has no valid argument but must resort to accusations.

Will someone believing they have the baptism of the Holy Spirit please refer to my post #244?

 

[smaller]

The Bible is its own best commentary. There is an easy, scriptural way to determine if one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit. What happened in Acts 2 when the apostles (as promised by Jesus and John, for you see Holy Baptism is a PROMISE and not a COMMAND) were baptized with the Holy Spirit? A sound as of a rushing mighy wind and cloven tongues like as of fire. I have attended through the years numerous meetings where people were claiming to be baptized with the Spirit and have never heard anything but a "windy" preacher and certainly no tongues like as fire on the heads of any of the so-called recipients of Holy Spirit baptism. The only other time such occured in the scripture was the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 and the scripture reads that Peter (in reporting to the other apostles what had happened) said: "And as I began to speak , the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us in the beginning" Acts 11:15.
God bless

Neither of the above indicates physical wind or physical fire.

They are in fact association terms, 'as.'

The cloven tongue for example is a SPLIT or DIVIDED tongue.

I doubt very much if you looked in the physical mouths of any of the participants their tongues were physically cut or divided. Even 'fire' is not always 'fire seen' in the physical. Even 'appearances' of Jesus do not always equate to 'physical' appearances. These are often matters spiritually discerned.

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The wind, the fire, the cloven tongue are all spiritual association terms that have little if anything to do with physical phenom. Though in some cases there is undoubtedly phenom, like when the prison doors were opened in Acts or light blinded Paul but not the others with him.

Even in Paul's case he 'purposefully' by Spirit Inspiration gives directly conflicting statements of that matter:

Acts 9:
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:
9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

s

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller

You wrote (post 263), referring to my post (244): "Neither of the above indicates physical wind or physical fire." My post did not so indicate. The Divine record of Acts 2 say "as" for both the "wind" and "cloven tongues like as of fire". But there was a "sound", vs.2, and thats literal and there were "cloven tongues, vs.3, and that too was literal. You make an argument on WHAT I DID NOT SAY!

Have a blest day

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller

You wrote (post 263), referring to my post (244): "Neither of the above indicates physical wind or physical fire." My post did not so indicate. The Divine record of Acts 2 say "as" for both the "wind" and "cloven tongues like as of fire". But there was a "sound", vs.2, and thats literal and there were "cloven tongues, vs.3, and that too was literal. You make an argument on WHAT I DID NOT SAY!

Have a blest day

Twas no argument.

You appeared to be basing and equating the matter of Acts 2 on the requirement of physically heard/observed phenom:

" I have attended through the years numerous meetings where people were claiming to be baptized with the Spirit and have never heard anything but a "windy" preacher and certainly no tongues like as fire on the heads"

s

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

E or anyone else that I have seen has NEVER SAID the HS is not given today, what you have been shown, and fail to prove otherwise (other than you opinion) is that the HS is given today in the portion you say YOU got.

If baptism of the HS is what you say you got (an it has not been proven scriptural to have been done by anyone but Jesus and only to the Apostles and the House of Cornelius) then show one scripture that this HS baptism can save you or anyone else?

If the baptism of the HS saved the house of Cornelius then why 3 verses after this baptism did Peter command them to be baptized with water if they were already saved?

How about Eph 1:13... for the 100th time... what does SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION unto the PRAISE OF HIS GLORY mean to YOU ?

 

[Butch5]

The Bible is its own best commentary. There is an easy, scriptural way to determine if one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit. What happened in Acts 2 when the apostles (as promised by Jesus and John, for you see Holy Baptism is a PROMISE and not a COMMAND) were baptized with the Holy Spirit? A sound as of a rushing mighy wind and cloven tongues like as of fire. I have attended through the years numerous meetings where people were claiming to be baptized with the Spirit and have never heard anything but a "windy" preacher and certainly no tongues like as fire on the heads of any of the so-called recipients of Holy Spirit baptism. The only other time such occured in the scripture was the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 and the scripture reads that Peter (in reporting to the other apostles what had happened) said: "And as I began to speak , the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us in the beginning" Acts 11:15.
God bless

Hi Webb,

Here's another point. Every occurrance of someone receiving the power of the Spirit in the Scriptures is in the presence of an apostle. In Acts 8 we find Phillip preaching the Gospel and many people getting saved yet none of them received the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down from Jerusalem.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. {miracles...: Gr. signs and great miracles}
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.​

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, (Act 8:12-18 KJV)

Luke records that it was through the laying on of the apostles hands that the Holy Spirit was given.

 

[Webb]

Hi Smaller: You wrote: "--I appeared to be basing and equating the matter of Acts 2 on the requirement of physically heard/observed phenom:" There was a sound, vs 2. And it filled "all the house". That was physical. There were "cloven tongues", that too was physical. The expressions "as of a rushing mighty wind" and "as of fire" are descriptive but not physical as the word "as" would indicate. There was indeed something heard and something seen.

 

[Mitspa]

It's obviously a waste of time, and impossible at that.. in trying to convince an unregenerated man of something which he cannot understand.

Kinda hard to explain the Holy Spirit to the natural mind!:eeeekkk



1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Eventide]

Kinda hard to explain the Holy Spirit to the natural mind!:eeeekkk



1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is.. and I'm convinced this is the case.. unregenerated men thinking they understand something they don't even have..

Does it get any more ridiculous than this.. I don't know..

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller: You wrote: "--I appeared to be basing and equating the matter of Acts 2 on the requirement of physically heard/observed phenom:" There was a sound, vs 2. And it filled "all the house". That was physical. There were "cloven tongues", that too was physical. The expressions "as of a rushing mighty wind" and "as of fire" are descriptive but not physical as the word "as" would indicate. There was indeed something heard and something seen.

"There was indeed something heard and something seen."

I agree! Was jes sayin' it wasn't physical wind or fire in the conventional sense of the terms.

s

 

[Webb]

Thanks kind sir, and my point remains.

 

[smaller]

Thanks kind sir, and my point remains.

As does mine...

We always win in agreement don't we?

 

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

How about Eph 1:13... for the 100th time... what does SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION unto the PRAISE OF HIS GLORY mean to YOU ?

I asked you how many times you were baptized, your response was:

Originally Posted by Eventide
Twice.. once into the body of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and then in water after I was saved and became a member of the body of Christ.

Now since the Bible says this:

Ephesians 4:2-7 (KJV)
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

You apparently must throw this verse out, or you don't understand Ephesians 1:13 (all 100 times)

 

[Eventide]

Re: Christ in you..

You apparently must throw this verse out, or you don't understand Ephesians 1:13 (all 100 times)

Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I probably don't understand many things.. And I'd suspect that your one true church is beyond any possibility of error here.

It's funny how that works isn't it..

 

[Deborah13]

1 Corinthians 12:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is my understanding we are discussing what this baptism is and if it is the same baptism that takes place in Acts. My english grammer and parts of speech is rusty to say the least but I think this would be correct.
we-noun, all-adj, baptized-verb, one Spirit-adverb
We are all baptized by one Spirit.
Jeremiah 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Here God is saying that He is the fountain of living water.
John 4:10 and 14
King James Version (KJV)
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.


continued on next post - not enough space

 

[rrowell]

Re: Christ in you..

Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I probably don't understand many things.. And I'd suspect that your one true church is beyond any possibility of error here.

It's funny how that works isn't it..

For the 100th time you said to me "your one true Church", I should remind you "I Have No Church" its His...

Now let me clear Ephesians 1:13 up for you a little bit...

This was a letter to the "Ephesian Church" <-- see that "Church" part? they were already "saints":

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

To be a saint you must be "in Christ" to be "in Christ" you must be water baptized :

Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This letter was from Paul Saluting them for their faith, ensuring them that because of their continued faith that because they were obedient to the Gospel, that the Gift of the Holy Spirit they received when they were baptized by water Acts 2:38 that they were "sealed with that Spirit" that he would "dwell with them"...


This was NOT another baptism as you allude to as it is affirmed in this very same letter in Ephesians 4:5 that there is ONLY one baptism (they already did it, they are saints)...


You fail to understand Ephesians 1:13.

 

[Deborah13]

continued for previous post

Jeremiah 2:13 - living water
Hebrew- Strong's #2416 - moving as opposed to stagnant water
(adj. riviving),(masculine noun. sustenance, maintenance)
(feminine noun. revival, renewal)
John 7:38
Greek- Strong's #2198 - living used with water - vital power and exerting the same on the soul
#2386 - belly - inner most part of man
Mark 1:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

To me it is clear that this is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when one is born again. This living water is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Christ in you..

It seems to me your discussion has gone off topic.

It was my understanding that we were trying to determine IF the baptism in 1 Corinthians was the same as the one spoken about in Acts.

It was not to discuss when I Corinthians took place. Whether it was when you were baptized in water or when we first believed is not the purpose of this thread.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[rrowell]

Mark 1:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

To me it is clear that this is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when one is born again. This living water is the Holy Spirit.

When one is baptized with water, the HS is the acting agent putting us in contact with the cleansing blood of Christ and then He does indwell in us, this is not a baptism of the HS.

Only Christ can baptize with the HS affirmed by your Mark 1:8 quote. the Baptism of the HS is only recorded twice in the NT, once to the Apostles, and once to the house of Cornelius, but never has it recorded anyone ever being saved by baptism of the HS, otherwise why would Peter have commanded Cornelius 3 verses after his baptism of the HS (Acts 10:44) to be water baptized? (Acts 10:47-48)

The same Great Apostle tells us here why water Baptism was necessary:

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: