Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

Re: Christ in you..


Who are you? the Word of God is all the "proof" a "believer" needs!



Mar 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He is my "proof"! as long as He sits at Gods Right Hand! His Word remains!
 
Re: Christ in you..

Who are you? the Word of God is all the "proof" a "believer" needs!



Mar 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He is my "proof"! as long as He sits at Gods Right Hand! His Word remains!

You have quoted one passage that puts one "in Christ" Mark 16:16 and this is in reference to "water baptism", and the verse 17,18, and 19 refer to the Apostles, not those who are water Baptized.

No proof what so ever that a baptism of the HS puts one "in Christ".
 
Re: Christ in you..

You have quoted one passage that puts one "in Christ" Mark 16:16 and this is in reference to "water baptism", and the verse 17,18, and 19 refer to the Apostles, not those who are water Baptized.

No proof what so ever that a baptism of the HS puts one "in Christ".

Thats just religious!


Mar 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

So in your understanding of scripture, the SAME word in one verse means something different in the NEXT?

Mat 23:13

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Act 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


 
Re: Christ in you..

Who are you? the Word of God is all the "proof" a "believer" needs!



Mar 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He is my "proof"! as long as He sits at Gods Right Hand! His Word remains!


The bible does not say Eph 1:13 is baptism with the Holy Spirit. So people must be assuming it.
 
Hi Mitspa

So you think you can perform the miraculous signs of Mark 16. Lets give you the opportunity to prove it and "put your money where your mouth is". Jesus and His apostles did those signs. They in addition raised the dead. I don't know where you live but I'm sure some of my brethren living near by will be glad to help. SO, lets find some maimed and lame, some deaf and some blind whom we can MUTUALLY agree on. Lets see what you can do with them. Then, lets go to the cemetery. If by the power of God you raise one, I or one of my brethren near by will do the same.

Have a blest day
 
Hi Mitspa

So you think you can perform the miraculous signs of Mark 16. Lets give you the opportunity to prove it and "put your money where your mouth is". Jesus and His apostles did those signs. They in addition raised the dead. I don't know where you live but I'm sure some of my brethren living near by will be glad to help. SO, lets find some maimed and lame, some deaf and some blind whom we can MUTUALLY agree on. Lets see what you can do with them. Then, lets go to the cemetery. If by the power of God you raise one, I or one of my brethren near by will do the same.

Have a blest day
Joh 14:10

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

The Word of God abides forever! Let God be true and every man a ..... you know;)
 
Hi Mitspa

Furthermore, you just said Eph.1:13 does say its Holy Spirit baptism. WHERE does it say such thing??? Come on now. One of the purposes of Holy Spirit baptism to the apostles was to "guide them into all truth", to bring "all things" Jesus had taught them to their remembrance. Now, try hard to remember where Eph.1:13 (or any where else) says Eph.1:13 is Holy Spirit baptism. If that doesn't come to your "remembrance" then surely you can come up with some line of scriptural justification for such a claim.
 
Hi Mitspa

Furthermore, you just said Eph.1:13 does say its Holy Spirit baptism. WHERE does it say such thing??? Come on now. One of the purposes of Holy Spirit baptism to the apostles was to "guide them into all truth", to bring "all things" Jesus had taught them to their remembrance. Now, try hard to remember where Eph.1:13 (or any where else) says Eph.1:13 is Holy Spirit baptism. If that doesn't come to your "remembrance" then surely you can come up with some line of scriptural justification for such a claim.

Yes it does! Who cares what you think it says? :wave

Jud 1:17

But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20

But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

1Co 14:14

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

You guys are missing God! and you dont care what the Word of God says! So why bother to try to teach you?

 
Hi Mitspa
On Eph.1:13 you replied:"Yes it does! Who cares what you think it says?" Mitspa you are either blind or have written your own translation of the NT for Eph.1:3 does NOT say or even a word about it being Holy Spirit baptism. Further, you have not (as asked) given a line of reason from the scripture why it does if in deed it does. And, I agree, no one cares what I think it says. I don't think anyone cares what either of us thinks. What we DO care about is WHAT does it say, and it says nothing about Holy Spirit baptism. The verse says we are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." Where in the scripture does it teach, in all the descriptions of the purposes of the baptism does it teach that the Holy Spirit baptism seals anyone? I believe what the verse says, but its not saying what you want it to.

You supply a smoke screen of scripture, none of which are on topic, but for your information, I believe with my heart every one of them.

Now, my post #306 presented you with a challenge. You made NO reply, and I know why. But lest you forget (as you seem to have forgotten to tell us where Eph.1:13 says its Holy Spirit baptism) I want you to answer post 306.
 
Hi Mitspa
On Eph.1:13 you replied:"Yes it does! Who cares what you think it says?" Mitspa you are either blind or have written your own translation of the NT for Eph.1:3 does NOT say or even a word about it being Holy Spirit baptism. Further, you have not (as asked) given a line of reason from the scripture why it does if in deed it does. And, I agree, no one cares what I think it says. I don't think anyone cares what either of us thinks. What we DO care about is WHAT does it say, and it says nothing about Holy Spirit baptism. The verse says we are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." Where in the scripture does it teach, in all the descriptions of the purposes of the baptism does it teach that the Holy Spirit baptism seals anyone? I believe what the verse says, but its not saying what you want it to.

You supply a smoke screen of scripture, none of which are on topic, but for your information, I believe with my heart every one of them.

Now, my post #306 presented you with a challenge. You made NO reply, and I know why. But lest you forget (as you seem to have forgotten to tell us where Eph.1:13 says its Holy Spirit baptism) I want you to answer post 306.

I am not trying to prove anything to you!:)

I dont think you and some others would believe, even if one was raised from the dead?:waving

Eph 1:19

And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, :biglol
 
Hi Mitspa

You wrote: "I don't think you and some others would believe, even if one was raised from the dead." But have you not learned from the scripture that the purposes of the signs and miracles of the NT were for the purpose of confirming the word of the messengers? For example: ''HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE, IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT SALVATION; WHICH AT THE FIRST BEGAN TO BE SPOKEN BY THE LORD, AND WAS CONFIRMED UNTO US BY THEM THAT HEARD HIM; GOD ALSO BEARING THEM WITNESS, BOTH WITH SIGNS AND WONDERS, AND WITH DIVERS MIRACLES, AND GIFTS OF THE HOLY GHOST, ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL? Heb. 2:3,4. Now, you claim to be a believer, and that those signs were to follow them that believe so I offer you the opportunity to CONFIRM.

But there is a seed of truth in what you wrote. You said some would not "believe , even if one was raised from the dead.'' Such reminds me of the rich man in hades in Lk.16. But the test here was to be based on the scriptures (Lk.16:27-31), and I have repeatedly plead with you to proved your position from the scripture and you have not, Eph.1:13 being the most recent. We know you can neither raise the dead nor restore the lame, nor can you with scripture prove the baptism of the Holy Spirit for today.

God bless
 
Hi Mitspa
On Eph.1:13 you replied:"Yes it does! Who cares what you think it says?" Mitspa you are either blind or have written your own translation of the NT for Eph.1:3 does NOT say or even a word about it being Holy Spirit baptism. Further, you have not (as asked) given a line of reason from the scripture why it does if in deed it does. And, I agree, no one cares what I think it says. I don't think anyone cares what either of us thinks. What we DO care about is WHAT does it say, and it says nothing about Holy Spirit baptism. The verse says we are "sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." Where in the scripture does it teach, in all the descriptions of the purposes of the baptism does it teach that the Holy Spirit baptism seals anyone? I believe what the verse says, but its not saying what you want it to.

You supply a smoke screen of scripture, none of which are on topic, but for your information, I believe with my heart every one of them.

Now, my post #306 presented you with a challenge. You made NO reply, and I know why. But lest you forget (as you seem to have forgotten to tell us where Eph.1:13 says its Holy Spirit baptism) I want you to answer post 306.


Hi Webb,

He says it's the baptism of the Holy Spirit, yet historically the seal was understood to be water baptism. I just find that ironic.


Hermas 150
Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,†he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.


 
Hi Mitspa

You wrote: "I don't think you and some others would believe, even if one was raised from the dead." But have you not learned from the scripture that the purposes of the signs and miracles of the NT were for the purpose of confirming the word of the messengers? For example: ''HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE, IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT SALVATION; WHICH AT THE FIRST BEGAN TO BE SPOKEN BY THE LORD, AND WAS CONFIRMED UNTO US BY THEM THAT HEARD HIM; GOD ALSO BEARING THEM WITNESS, BOTH WITH SIGNS AND WONDERS, AND WITH DIVERS MIRACLES, AND GIFTS OF THE HOLY GHOST, ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL? Heb. 2:3,4. Now, you claim to be a believer, and that those signs were to follow them that believe so I offer you the opportunity to CONFIRM.

But there is a seed of truth in what you wrote. You said some would not "believe , even if one was raised from the dead.'' Such reminds me of the rich man in hades in Lk.16. But the test here was to be based on the scriptures (Lk.16:27-31), and I have repeatedly plead with you to proved your position from the scripture and you have not, Eph.1:13 being the most recent. We know you can neither raise the dead nor restore the lame, nor can you with scripture prove the baptism of the Holy Spirit for today.

God bless
Again I am not interested in trying to prove anything to you or those like you!
The Word of God speaks for itself, has for thousands of years. It does fine without you "believing it" or me trying to "prove it"

Rom 3:3

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom 3:4

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;:wave
 
Mitspa--Well God bless, and keep searching the scriptures (as the Beareans did) to find whether these things are so.
 
Mitspa--Well God bless, and keep searching the scriptures (as the Beareans did) to find whether these things are so.
Thank you! I have Many things yet to learn, but Some things I already know:wave
 
Re: "Since" or "When" (... you believed) ??

When Paul was in Ephesus finding certain disciples, did he ask them if they received the Holy Ghost when they believed? No, Paul asked them "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" The difference here reveals the five foolish virgins that have yet to trim their lamps with the oil of the Holy Ghost. No matter how that verse is translated, the meaning remains the same.

But many teach that speaking with tongues is necessary or you haven't been baptized with the Holy Ghost. They don't simply state that speaking in tongues is a sign of the Holy Ghost like other spiritual gifts, including love. They think that speaking in tongues is the ONLY proof. The worst of them then start to think that speaking in tongues is a badge of honor.



Here then is what we know:
"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the holy Ghost. FOR they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God."
[Acts 10:45, 46]

The debate over allowing water Baptism for Gentiles was settled once and for all when Peter saw that they had been baptized in the Holy Ghost. He heard them speak in tongues and magnify God and this was proof enough for him to declare, "And as I began to speak, the holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye SHALL BE baptized with the holy Ghost."
[Acts 11:15,16]

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" [Jn. 7:38,39]

Attempts to change the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from an event worth seeking and waiting for into something that happens "automatically" at the time of "conversion" are not supported in the bible.

SIMON THE SORCERER
Some may want to say that only the Apostles were "baptized" in the Holy Ghost at the start of their ministry. Others will wish to say that it is by the laying of hands of the Apostles (only) that Christians can be baptized in the Holy Ghost. We can find some evidence for this view if we examine the Scriptures about what Simon the Sorcerer wanted to purchase. Surely, he was not offering money for nothing or for something he already had: "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." - [Acts 8:14-19 KJV] Of course Simon was chastised and told to repent (in no uncertain terms) but the point that it was by the laying of hands that the Holy Ghost was given is not supported in our many examples.

SAUL OF TARSUS (PAUL)
Still, some may argue that Paul was baptized in the Holy Spirit accompanied by the laying of hands by Ananias. Let's look: "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized." - [Acts 9:17-18 KJV]

I cannot prove that Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit before his baptism (in water). In other words, I cannot claim it is a necessary inference -- a likely inference but not a necessary one. Still, there are other examples to look at before we can conclude the matter.

What about the Gentles?
Does the Bible mention "laying of hands" when they were filled? Peter was speaking and telling how God anointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power... "[and] while Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." - [Acts 10:38, 44-48 KJV]

Later, Peter told those in Jerusalem about it, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." - [Acts 11:15-18 KJV]

We see that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was not restricted to Apostles only, that this was what was called "The Promise of the Father", spoken of by Joel, and although the laying of hands is Scriptural it is not be demanded in every case. Again, it is not a necessary inference. Some may come and say that it is only through an apostle that the Holy Spirit can be given. But this eisegesis also fails because we see that the Promise of the Father was given to "even as many as the Lord shall call..." "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." - [Acts 2:38-39 KJV]

THE GOSPELS:
Mat 3:11 (NIV) [John the Baptist:] I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Mark 1:8 (NIV) I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 11:11-13 (NIV) [Jesus:] "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Luke 24:49 (NIV) "I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 7:38-39 (NIV) "Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive...

THE RISEN CHRIST DECLARED: Acts 1:5,8 (NIV) "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit... But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you..."

Thank you Sparrow, I had forgotten some of these scriptures I had learned so long ago.
 
Back
Top