A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

[rrowell]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

Once again.. I have and you simply can't receive it..

Eph 1:13 says CLEAR AS DAY that I was SEALED with the Holy Spirit UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION after I trusted in Christ and after I believed..

If that isn't saved to you then imo you haven't a clue what being saved actually is... and that makes perfect sense to me because Catholics constantly teach that infants are born again when they're baptized in water when they're not.. so you have probably been taught that you're born again and yet you may not be..

All so that the so called one true church can continue to make zillions of dollars on the populace.. sad but true facts in Christendom.

Well then the Bible contradicts its self, or you don't understand Eph. 1:13?

Guess what I think it is?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

Then how do you get by this scripture:

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I don't get by it.. I accept it as the simple glorious truth that it is..

John baptized with water but HE SHALL baptize you with the HOLY GHOST..

Now you tell me.. which one is the ONE BAPTISM Paul speaks of.. that in water or that done by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit ?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

Well then the Bible contradicts its self, or you don't understand Eph. 1:13?

Guess what I think it is?

Supposing you're catholic.. I know EXACTLY what you've been taught and what you think.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

The part you don't understand is "belief" is only one part your trip to salvation, you first must hear the truth before you can believe it.

Romans 10:17 (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

can't be save yet, we still have other commands, then once you believe what you hear you must obey the commands given on your trip to salvation.

Romans 10:9 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Note hear "confess with thy mouth" must be done to be saved... so we cannot be saved by just belief we must too confess Christ. but wait? there is more.

This scripture says we must repent and be baptized "for remission of sins" and then and only then do you receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So, in order to have done "all" that is commanded to be saved, one must:

Hear the Gospel, Believe it, repent of our sinful ways, confess Jesus by mouth, and be baptized by water, until you do ALL of these you have not kept his commands, and do not love him, obviously do not believe, and cannot be saved.

When one goes by the following verse, they MUST do ALL his commands or they have not "called upon the name of the Lord", as that statement says "by his authority" and he say "keep my commandments"

Romans 10:13 (KJV)
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You said, "given on your trip to salvation"

"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior," Titus 3:5-6

Are you sealed? Have you asked Him to pour it on you? Sounds like a sure way to know ;) Overflowing with the Spirit can only be good, just read about what happens in the Bible when it does! If you don't believe in this verse, that He pours it on us. Then maybe you don't even believe we can be saved?

The way you write it just sounds like its a saved by works sort of thing. Baptism is ultimately making your transformation public to the rest of the world, which we are commanded to do, but isn't required for salvation!

 

[Eventide]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

Geez. I have been as honest as I can...when I first started attending the Church of Christ, I felt it more of a duty as I was taught in the catholic faith, more of an obligation rather than hearing the truth about baptism. I was baptized the first time out of "duty" like the 7 sacraments you have to "perform" as a catholic." Then the more I attended the Church of Christ and studied through bible study and fellowship learned the truth and God put it on my heart to be baptized as one of his commands. I was baptized in the same church and had meetings with 3 of the members prior to my baptism to to ask them if there is such a thing as a repeat baptism. I felt that the first time I was baptized was with not the correct intentions and asked to be baptized again....this time knowing the truth, believe, repent, confess and be baptized according to the Bible.

OK, now I see what you're saying.. you were baptized in the church of Christ twice..

OK, anything change after your second baptism in water ?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

OK, now I see what you're saying.. you were baptized in the church of Christ twice..

OK, anything change after your second baptism in water ?

Absolutely, I cannot explain it...I have a closer relationship with God and other very personal things.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

Absolutely, I cannot explain it...I have a closer relationship with God and other very personal things.

You can't explain it.. and nobody can.. because our personal experiences in conversion do not define it.. we learn (often many years later) exactly how we were baptized into the body of Christ.. and Paul tells us precisely how that happened.. after you trusted in Christ, after you heard the word of truth, and after you believed...

GOD SEALED YOU (and every other member of HIS BODY) with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION and unto the PRAISE of HIS GLORY..

Simple as that.. so if you can't explain it.. then let the Apostle to the Gentiles tell you exactly what DID happen..

That's if the word of God means anything to you... and from what I've experienced.. that's a big if..

 

[smaller]

Paul and the Apostles purposefully make conflicting statements.

We know for a fact there is only ONE baptism.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

We also know for a fact that there are baptismS plural.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms,

The only question is harmony.

Some will find harmony in understandings.

Some will be purposefully weeded out by these expressions of OPEN CONFLICTS of scriptures, and exposed by not seeking harmony.

Those who truly are 'born again' will not understand baptismS plural to denigrate the entire validity of ONE baptism.

Others will fall into that trap and that trap is purposefully SET by the scriptures, not only on this matter, but on many matters.

To those who deal with this subject matter honestly they will not denigrate another believer by the insistence on multiple baptismS after the fact of One Baptism.

The text has spread multiple baptismS for viewing in understanding, but that is NEVER to the detriment of the entry into His Body by faith, the ONE Baptism.

In this way multiple baptismS are arrayed exactly for the benefit of exposing those who seek to dispel other believers for their initial One Baptism.

God has purposefully elected to keep the evil in mankind divided. Not only in the world of wickedness, but EVIL in the hearts of church members as well.

Divisions therefore are an exact intention of God. Even though God does not desire such divisions. They are a fact that comes with our current condition.

In those who recognize that One Baptism is to 'divide us' from the evil in our own hearts, they will be led to see 'all' baptismS, and will not condemn other believers for what they themselves also carry.

Others will, by that same adverse nature within them, use the LETTER TO KILL.

s

 

[rrowell]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

GOD SEALED YOU (and every other member of HIS BODY) with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION and unto the PRAISE of HIS GLORY..

After she was water baptized.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

You can't explain it.. and nobody can.. because our personal experiences in conversion do not define it.. we learn (often many years later) exactly how we were baptized into the body of Christ.. and Paul tells us precisely how that happened.. after you trusted in Christ, after you heard the word of truth, and after you believed...


Simple as that.. so if you can't explain it.. then let the Apostle to the Gentiles tell you exactly what DID happen..

That's if the word of God means anything to you... and from what I've experienced.. that's a big if..

I have exposed more than I wanted to about my conversion...honestly. I would like to hear about your conversion, if you had one and why you are so against baptism.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Ephesians 1:13

I have exposed more than I wanted to about my conversion...honestly. I would like to hear about your conversion, if you had one and why you are so against baptism.

As mentioned... don't fall into the trap of thinking that what you perceived to happen somehow DEFINES what conversion is all about.. because it doesn't.. the word of God does that for us.. and evidently you can't receive Eph 1:13 because of what your one true church teaches... again, simple as that.

And I am not against baptism.. I was baptized in water.. OK ?

What I stand against is the nonsense that my decision to be baptized in water SAVED me... it didn't.. God ALONE saved me after I trusted in Him.

 

[BornAgain]

Paul and the Apostles purposefully make conflicting statements.

We know for a fact there is only ONE baptism.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

We also know for a fact that there are baptismS plural.

Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms,

The only question is harmony.

Some will find harmony in understandings.

Some will be purposefully weeded out by these expressions of OPEN CONFLICTS of scriptures, and exposed by not seeking harmony.

Those who truly are 'born again' will not understand baptismS plural to denigrate the entire validity of ONE baptism.

Others will fall into that trap and that trap is purposefully SET by the scriptures, not only on this matter, but on many matters.

To those who deal with this subject matter honestly they will not denigrate another believer by the insistence on multiple baptismS after the fact of One Baptism.

The text has spread multiple baptismS for viewing in understanding, but that is NEVER to the detriment of the entry into His Body by faith, the ONE Baptism.

In this way multiple baptismS are arrayed exactly for the benefit of exposing those who seek to dispel other believers for their initial One Baptism.

God has purposefully elected to keep the evil in mankind divided. Not only in the world of wickedness, but EVIL in the hearts of church members as well.

Divisions therefore are an exact intention of God. Even though God does not desire such divisions. They are a fact that comes with our current condition.

In those who recognize that One Baptism is to 'divide us' from the evil in our own hearts, they will be led to see 'all' baptismS, and will not condemn other believers for what they themselves also carry.

Others will, by that same adverse nature within them, use the LETTER TO KILL.

s

Correct, there is much controversy regarding baptism. You seem very well versed so I would like you to explain what John 3:5 regarding baptism means please.

 

[smaller]

Correct, there is much controversy regarding baptism. You seem very well versed so I would like you to explain what John 3:5 regarding baptism means please.

Ah, one of my favorite scripture sets.

I would say to scroll down to vs. 12 to see what kind of 'birth' Jesus was speaking of to Nicodemus.

Then come back and say what type of birth that is exactly as Jesus said. See if you see it.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Ah, one of my favorite scripture sets.

I would say to scroll down to vs. 12 to see what kind of 'birth' Jesus was speaking of to Nicodemus.

Then come back and say what type of birth that is exactly as Jesus said. See if you see it.

s

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)


the Lord returns to the singular number because he alone had seen the things of which he is now speaking. The "earthly things" of which he had spoken were matters that involved things here on earth, the new birth, the kingdom of heaven and his relation to it. These matters Nicodemus, because of his background in the Jewish religion, had difficulty in accepting.


So, please explain John 3:5.

 

[BornAgain]

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)


the Lord returns to the singular number because he alone had seen the things of which he is now speaking. The "earthly things" of which he had spoken were matters that involved things here on earth, the new birth, the kingdom of heaven and his relation to it. These matters Nicodemus, because of his background in the Jewish religion, had difficulty in accepting.


So, please explain John 3:5.

Nicodemus knew of but one birth—the fleshly one—and he failed to perceive that Jesus by means of a figure was drawing an analogy between the birth which brings one into active physical life and the new birth which introduces one into spiritual life; and he therefore offered what to him was an insuperable objection to the Lord's statement.

 

[smaller]

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12 (KJV)


the Lord returns to the singular number because he alone had seen the things of which he is now speaking. The "earthly things" of which he had spoken were matters that involved things here on earth, the new birth, the kingdom of heaven and his relation to it. These matters Nicodemus, because of his background in the Jewish religion, had difficulty in accepting.


So, please explain John 3:5.

What kind of BIRTH was Jesus showing?

It is NOT a hard dot to connect.

s

 

[BornAgain]

What kind of BIRTH was Jesus showing?

It is NOT a hard dot to connect.

s

If I have told you earthly things—If, after I have illustrated this new birth by a most expressive metaphor taken from earthly things, and after all you believe not; how can you believe, should I tell you of heavenly things, in such language as angels use, where earthly images and illustrations can have no place? Or, if you, a teacher in Israel, do not understand the nature of such an earthly thing, or custom of the kingdom established over the Jewish nation, as being born of baptism, practised every day in the initiation of proselytes, how will you understand such heavenly things as the initiation of my disciples by the baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire from heaven, if I should proceed farther on the subject?

 

[smaller]

Nicodemus knew of but one birth—the fleshly one—and he failed to perceive that Jesus by means of a figure was drawing an analogy between the birth which brings one into active physical life and the new birth which introduces one into spiritual life; and he therefore offered what to him was an insuperable objection to the Lord's statement.

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus exactly about 'earthly birth.'

As a leader of Israel Jesus expressed to Nicodemus that he should know this matter.

The fact is that ALL of Israel are Gods children.

To be Gods children their origination was always with God from the beginning as it is God who gave them LIFE on earth through the EARTHLY BIRTH process, and that birth is both Spiritual as their LIFE, their spirit came from God to begin with, and they were then BORN AGAIN here on EARTH and it is a BIRTH into this EARTHLY environment through what?

a WATER SAC.

Spirit and Water, an EARTHLY BIRTH as it pertains to the people of ISRAEL.

This also shows us that MANKIND is meant to enter into heaven.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The prerequisite to 'see' is to be HUMAN, a PERSON.

And most believers have a really really hard time understanding that in this present 'earthly' environment 'we' as humans are NOT the only inhabitants.

There are also POSERS who seek to enter as well that are NOT human. That would be the devil and his messengers. These are also IN this present wicked world environment.

If you look upon the 'whole' or 'undivided' world you should see in the world of 'un'believers, PAWNS of the DEVIL.

This lends us to see the world spiritually through TWO EYES.

There is a world we see of flesh. And there is in fact a world that can not be seen with FLESH EYES that is only revealed by His Words.

Most believers are not geared to see with Spiritual Eyes, but if they are given that sight from Above, they will in fact SEE the unseen world. Even while 'that world' remains UNseen.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus exactly about 'earthly birth.'

As a leader of Israel Jesus expressed to Nicodemus that he should know this matter.

The fact is that ALL of Israel are Gods children.

To be Gods children their origination was always with God from the beginning as it is God who gave them LIFE on earth through the EARTHLY BIRTH process, and that birth is both Spiritual as their LIFE, their spirit came from God to begin with, and they were then BORN AGAIN here on EARTH and it is a BIRTH into this EARTHLY environment through what?

I stop agreeing with you.

 

[BornAgain]

I stop agreeing with you.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6 (KJV)


The fact of the new birth is stated in verse 3.The details of it are given. There is one birth; there are two elements, "water," and "the Spirit." Thus, both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved. Col 1:13,14. To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for (unto) the remission of sins. Heb 11:6, Luke 13:3 Rom 10:10. To enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Since things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, it follows that to be born of water and the Spirit is to believe the gospel, repent of one's sins, confess one's faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission sins. John 3:5 states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38. To be born "anew" is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret "water" in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. Henry Alford, one of the translators of the American Standard Version, wrote that "all attempts to get rid" of baptism in this passage, "have sprung from doctrinal prejudices by which the views of expositors have been warped," and Hooker, himself a writer of more than a hundred years ago, said that "of all ancient writers there is not one to be named who ever expounded this text otherwise than as implying external baptism." One is begotten of the Spirit by believing the Word which the Spirit gave, and born of water by coming forth from the waters of baptism.

The flesh produces fleshly life; the Spirit begets spiritual life. Nicodemus had known only the first; the second he must experience before he could enter and enjoy the blessings and benefits of the kingdom. The law that like begets like was and is a universal one and Nicodemus ought already to have perceived it. It is as immutable and unchangeable as the law of gravity.