An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[brightfame52]

Again, you refuse to address the subject at hand which is: You say one can be regenerated without hearing the gospel.

You state that the story of Cornelius shows how Cornelius was regenerated and subsequently heard the gospel. I response by listing verses Acts 10:39-45 which contradicts you thesis and you do not dispute my reasoning but go off on a tangent on other irrelevant verses.

Im finished with it, I addressed it. Cornelius was regenerated before he heard the Gospel, for he feared God before he heard the Gospel from Peter. If you cant understand that, Im sorry, cant help you

 

[brightfame52]

No, but I have heard of Baptismal regeneration. Where a person is born again in the water. The person goes in a sinner and comes out a saint.

Gospel regeneration is a person is regenerated by the Gospel preached to them. The Preached Gospel regenerates them, gives them life. Would you agree with that ?

 

[Whatever]

Gospel regeneration is a person is regenerated by the Gospel preached to them. The Preached Gospel regenerates them, gives them life. Would you agree with that ?

In the sense that it is the Spirit working through the Word.
1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

 

[electedbyhim]

LOL .... well, I hope we have a jury trial as I feel very confident I would win.

I was just looking over Acts 10,
1-8 Peter and Cornelius
9-33 Peter's vision
34-43 Gentiles hear the Good News
44-48 Holy Spirit fall on gentiles.

Macarthur on verses 11-33 So Peter and Cornelius both had been sovereignly prepared by God and had responded obediently to His directions. All was ready for Peter's gospel presentation, which would result in the salvation of Cornelius and the others.

Macarthur has a point here.

I will look at this chapter later and also look at other views.

Im on the fence.

 

[Whatever]

Cornelius was regenerated before he heard the Gospel, for he feared God before he heard the Gospel from Peter

I don't think so. The whole of Acts chapter 10 is about this. In verse 34 Peter starts preaching to them.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 . . .Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did

Cornelius was an elect person who needed to hear the preaching of the Word to actually be given the gift of the Holy Spirit to be saved.

This is a perfect example of how God works it out that one of His elect will be saved through the message preached.
1Co_1:21 . . . . it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[brightfame52]

In the sense that it is the Spirit working through the Word.
1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

The Gospel does bring forth to light the Life of regeneration. But the heart has to be already regenerated, the good heart hearer Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

You have to be spiritual to understand the word, the natural man cannot 1 Cor 2:14

 

[brightfame52]

I don't think so. The whole of Acts chapter 10 is about this. In verse 34 Peter starts preaching to them.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 . . .Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did

Cornelius was an elect person who needed to hear the preaching of the Word to actually be given the gift of the Holy Spirit to be saved.

This is a perfect example of how God works it out that one of His elect will be saved through the message preached.
1Co_1:21 . . . . it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

I believe he was, I know he was. The Spirit falling on them isnt regeneration, regeneration is a inward work

 

[Fastfredy0]

Im finished with it, I addressed it. Cornelius was regenerated before he heard the Gospel, for he feared God before he heard the Gospel from Peter. If you cant understand that, Im sorry, cant help you

Well, one of us can't understand it given we disagree.

One last time ... you said:

I believe regeneration occurs prior to hearing the Gospel, and its prepatory in order to hear and believe the Gospel

then you went on to say:

Like Cornelius, he was regenerated, feared God prior to Peter preaching the Gospel to him

... and even though I pointed out in Acts 10:38-40 that Peter told Cornelius about the Jesus life, His death, His resurrection, God being with Jesus ... and then subsequently in verse 44-45 the Holy Spirit "poured" into them (regeneration) .... yet somehow this narrative story proves a persons doesn't have to hear the gospel in order to be regenerated. Your claim has person being born again and thus eligible for heaven without the gospel. This is 'another' gospel that I have never heard of ... this is not Calvinism.

 

[electedbyhim]

Now there was a certain man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people, and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in to him, and said to him, “Cornelius!” And fixing his gaze upon him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now dispatch some men to Joppa, and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; he is staying with a certain tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.” And when the angel who was speaking to him had departed, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were in constant attendance upon him, and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa. (Act_10:1-8)

Since man is dead in sin (Eph_2:1-4), salvation cannot and does not begin with him (cf. Joh_1:12-13; Joh_6:37; Eph_1:4; Act_13:48). One such dead man, Cornelius, whom God was about to save, lived in Caesarea, an important city located on the coast roughly thirty miles north of Joppa. It was the capital of the Roman province of Judea, and the residence of its procurator. Naturally, a large Roman garrison was stationed there. Among them was Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort. A Roman legion at full strength consisted of 6,000 men, and was divided into ten cohorts of 600 men each. A centurion commanded 100 of these men, and each legion therefore had 60 centurions, who were considered the backbone of the Roman army. The Roman historian Polybius described centurions as “not so much venturesome daredevils as natural leaders of a steady and sedate spirit, not so much men who will initiate attacks and open the battle as men who will hold their ground when worsted and hard pressed and be ready to die at their posts” (Histories vi. xix—xlii, cited in Naphtali Lewis and Meyer Reinhold, eds., (Roman Civilization: Sourcebook 1: The Republic [New York: Harper & Row, 1966], 435). Like the other centurions mentioned in the New Testament, Cornelius had reached his rank by proving to be a strong, responsible, reliable man.

More than a good soldier, however, Cornelius was a devout man, and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people, and prayed to God continually. His was a seeking heart; he had lived up to the light he had, and God was about to give him more. This is the necessary balance to divine election, that God responds to the seeking, willing heart (cf. Isa_55:6-7; Jer_29:13; Joh_7:17). Divine election and human responsibility are both the clear teaching of Scripture. Salvation is both accomplished by God and commanded of sinners. Although our limited comprehension does not allow us to harmonize them, there is no conflict in the mind of God.

Cornelius was a Godfearer. The Lord had moved on his dark soul so that he had abandoned his pagan religion and was worshiping Jehovah God. That devotion expressed itself in his giving of many alms to the Jewish people, and by the fact that he prayed to God continually. He had stopped short, however, of becoming a full proselyte to Judaism through circumcision.

Because of His sovereign election of Cornelius, and in response to his seeking heart, God moved to prepare him. About the ninth hour (3:00 P.M.) of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in to him, and said to him, “Cornelius!” The ninth hour was the most important time of prayer in the Jewish day (Act_3:1). God responded to his prayer by sending the angelic messenger.

The appearance of angels in Scripture produced terror and awe (Jdg_6:22; Jdg_13:20; 1Ch_21:16; Dan_10:4-9; Mat_28:2-5; Luk_1:11-13, Luk_1:30; Luk_2:9-10)—very different from the casual flippancy with which many today treat their supposed encounters with them. Understandably, the veteran soldier Cornelius was terrified. Fixing his gaze upon the angel and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?”

The angel was quick to reassure Cornelius, saying to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.” God knew Cornelius's heart, that he was a devout man, worshiping Him to the best of his knowledge. Despite Cornelius's sincerity, and devotion to the true God, he could not be saved apart from a correct understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Act_4:12). God was arranging to provide him with that knowledge. Specifically, the angel instructed him to “dispatch some men to Joppa, and send for a man named Simon, who is also called Peter; he is staying with a certain tanner named Simon, whose house is by the sea.”

Cornelius responded immediately. When the angel who was speaking to him had departed, he summoned two of his servants and a devout soldier of those who were in constant attendance upon him, and after he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.
At first glance, there seems to be no reason for this delay. Certainly the angel was quite capable of delivering the gospel message to Cornelius. Although an angel will proclaim the gospel in the future (Rev_14:6), God has chosen to work through human instruments. God also wanted Peter there to observe firsthand Cornelius's salvation. Only then would he be fully prepared to accept Gentiles into the church.
John Macarthur

 

[Fastfredy0]

I will look at this chapter later and also look at other views.

Im on the fence.

It's simple... Acts 10:38-40 .. Peter presents the gospel to Cornelius
Acts 10:44-45 .. The Holy Spirit pours Himself in Cornelius.

The only way your interpretation works is if the verses of the narrative or not in chronological order.
... and again, this is a narrative in which one doesn't necessarily get all the facts. A didactic verse shows that hearing the gospel precedes regeneration. "Faith cometh by hearing" meaning hearing the gospel is necessary for faith (as is regeneration). So you have to 'hear the gospel' according to the verse to have Faith and you have to be regenerated to have faith (according to Calvinism) ... Thus one must hear the gospel as a prerequisite to both regeneration and faith

the order is "hear the gospel" ---> be regenerated (if God has chosen you) --> Faith. Where FAITH is a result of regeneration where the two (faith and regeneration) occur simultaneously with the logical order being regeneration cause saving faith. Free Willianism would have self-determined faith logically coming before regeneration but Free Willies don't know what they are talking about. *giggle*

 

[electedbyhim]

It's simple... Acts 10:38-40 .. Peter presents the gospel to Cornelius
Acts 10:44-45 .. The Holy Spirit pours Himself in Cornelius.

The only way your interpretation works is if the verses of the narrative or not in chronological order.
... and again, this is a narrative in which one doesn't necessarily get all the facts. A didactic verse shows that hearing the gospel precedes regeneration. "Faith cometh by hearing" meaning hearing the gospel is necessary for faith (as is regeneration). So you have to 'hear the gospel' according to the verse to have Faith and you have to be regenerated to have faith (according to Calvinism) ... Thus one must hear the gospel as a prerequisite to both regeneration and faith

the order is "hear the gospel" ---> be regenerated (if God has chosen you) --> Faith. Where FAITH is a result of regeneration where the two (faith and regeneration) occur simultaneously with the logical order being regeneration cause saving faith. Free Willianism would have self-determined faith logically coming before regeneration but Free Willies don't know what they are talking about. *giggle*

Thats funny.

Furthur reading, proves you are correct.

 

[electedbyhim]

Spiritual Power​

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. (Act_10:44-46)

While Peter was still speaking these words his sermon was suddenly and dramatically interrupted. Without the text saying so, it is apparent that when Cornelius and the other Gentiles heard that forgiveness was available through Jesus Christ (Act_10:43), they believed. In immediate response to their faith, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. Saving faith results in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (cf. Rom_8:9; 1Co_12:13), and to be “devoid of the Spirit” characterizes unbelievers (Jud_1:19). It is true that the Spirit's coming was delayed for the Samaritans. Although they were saved through Philip's preaching, they had to wait until the arrival of Peter and John. As noted in the discussion of Act_8:14-19 in Act_19:1-41, however, that was to emphasize the unity of Samaritans and Jews in the church. No such delay was needed here, since the apostle Peter was already present.

Act_8:1-40 does not establish the norm for receiving the Spirit. If believers were always to be saved and then later to receive the Spirit, why did Cornelius and the others receive the Spirit the moment they were saved? The view of some that they were already saved and merely received the Spirit here runs afoul of Act_11:14. Further, if they were already saved and this were simply the occasion of their receiving the Spirit, why did Peter preach the gospel? Why did he not instead give them teaching on how to receive the Spirit? The Spirit's coming required no petition, no confession, no water baptism, and no laying on of hands. He came as they listened and believed. That is clear from Peter's inspired testimony in Act_11:17 that God had given them the Holy Spirit, “after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.”

There can be no such thing as a Christian without the Holy Spirit, since He is essential to the Christian life. The Holy Spirit grants power to witness (Act_1:8) and pray (Rom_8:26). Through His ministry comes assurance of salvation (Rom_8:16), since by Him believers are “sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph_4:30; cf. Eph_1:13). He is the “pledge of our inheritance” (Eph_1:14) and also our teacher (1Jn_2:27).

Peter was no doubt startled by what happened, though he had previously seen the same reality with the Samaritans. But all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. These six brethren Peter brought with him from Joppa were astonished that the Gentiles were saved and received the Spirit. That the church was not to be exclusively Jewish must have come as quite a shock to them. Yet they could hardly deny what was happening, since they were hearing the Gentiles speaking with tongues and exalting God.

This passage does not teach that speaking in tongues is normally to be expected with the coming of the Spirit. The Spirit granted it on this occasion as visible proof that He indwelt these Gentiles. He knew that the Jewish brethren with Peter would be hard to convince, so He granted the same manifestation experienced by Jewish Christians at Pentecost. It should be noted that here, as throughout Acts, speaking in tongues is a group, not an individual, phenomenon.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary [Chicago: Moody, 1984].)

 

[Whatever]

I can't even remember what our original argument was now about Cornelius. But here is an article from James Buchanan on Monergism:

Cornelius: Acts 10 | Monergism

by James BuchananAT the period of our Lord's advent, there existed amongst the Jews the same diversities of opinion and character as are found amongst

www.monergism.com

He seems to say that Cornelius was already saved. I guess we get hung up on "faith comes by hearing" and then think a person has to hear the full gospel as we have in the NT. Plenty of people in the OT were saved before Jesus even came. He would have believed in the coming Messiah as much as the other disciples did, but didn't know as much as he could. That might be why the Angel told him to call for Peter and have Peter tell him.
Kind of like Apollos in Acts 18:

Act 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

 

[Fastfredy0]

we get hung up on "faith comes by hearing" and then think a person has to hear the full gospel as we have in the NT

Aside: There's much debate as to what the minimum content of salvific faith is.
I like to illustrate the issue by stating: You can ask 10 born again Christians everything one must believe to be saved and you will get 9 different answers.

 

[JLB]

How does one believe? Belief equals faith, yes?

No.

Faith is a noun.

Faith comes from God when He speaks to us.

Believe is a verb. Believe is what we do in response to God speaking to us, by which we receive faith.


Also, believe means commit, trust and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.

Unbelief is Disobedience.

That’s why we see the term believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel.

Only those who obey the Gospel (the truth) are saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17




JLB

 

[electedbyhim]

No.

Faith is a noun.

Faith comes from God when He speaks to us.

Believe is a verb. Believe is what we do in response to God speaking to us, by which we receive faith.


Also, believe means commit, trust and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.

Unbelief is Disobedience.

That’s why we see the term believe the Gospel and obey the Gospel.

Only those who obey the Gospel (the truth) are saved.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17




JLB

So, God gives us the faith to believe. We did nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

I can't even remember what our original argument was now about Cornelius. But here is an article from James Buchanan on Monergism:

Cornelius: Acts 10 | Monergism

by James BuchananAT the period of our Lord's advent, there existed amongst the Jews the same diversities of opinion and character as are found amongst

www.monergism.com

He seems to say that Cornelius was already saved. I guess we get hung up on "faith comes by hearing" and then think a person has to hear the full gospel as we have in the NT. Plenty of people in the OT were saved before Jesus even came. He would have believed in the coming Messiah as much as the other disciples did, but didn't know as much as he could. That might be why the Angel told him to call for Peter and have Peter tell him.
Kind of like Apollos in Acts 18:

Act 18:24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Yes Cornelius was already saved from the penalty of sins and he was already saved by regeneration given a new heart that fears God, yet he had not heard the Gospel, but he was Spiritually prepared to hear it.

Cornelius was clean by God Himself according to the vision given to Peter Acts 10:15


And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Again in Acts 11:9

But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The word cleansed is aorist tense, its done and it is the word katharizō :

1. in a moral sense
   1. to free from defilement of sin and from faults
   2. to purify from wickedness
   3. to free from guilt of sin, to purify
   4. to consecrate by cleansing or purifying
   5. to consecrate, dedicate

The word is used here Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Jesus had purged his conscience already, and he was free from guilt of sin by the Blood of Christ. He was already Justified, he was a Just man before God Acts 10:22
And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Its the same word used of zach and his wife elizabeth Lk 1:6

And they were both righteous/just before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Buchanan mentioned them in his article as well.

 

[JLB]

Regeneration is the work of the Spirit and happens when the person hears the gospel.

Almost.


Regeneration, being born again is what happens when someone hears and believes the Gospel, not just hears the Gospel.


Jesus says it this way —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

The ones by the wayside did indeed hear, but they did not believe.


Believe = Saved







JLB

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

No.

Faith is a noun.

Belief is used as a noun here in regards to belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[JLB]

So, God gives us the faith to believe. We did nothing.

Please show us the scripture that says God gives us the faith to believe, (which does not make sense) and we did nothing.


God speaks and we receive faith.

We either respond by obeying or disobeying.


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8



JLB