An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[GodsGrace]

Only those born of God can hear the words of God, if not they hear them not John 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Now are you disagreeing with Jesus here ?

John 8:47

One that is of God hears God's words.

That means that one must be born again in order to become born again.
I've explained this using 1 Cor 2:14, but you like only the verses you like.

So...

What does this mean?
BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Acts 16:31

What does this mean?
IF GOD THEREFORE GAVE TO THEM THE SAME GIFT AS HE GAVE TO US ALSO...
AFTER BELIEVING IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Acts 11:17

What comes first, the believing or the salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

Dead - “nekrous” - lifeless, useless, dead

trespasses - offenses - same word used in Eph 1:7 (sins)

Before a person is saved/regenerated, they are spiritually dead. This means they are dead to the things of God and dead people are totally incapable of resurrecting themselves to any type of spiritual life. Those who advance free will never begin at the point of a person being spiritually dead. This is the beginning point for every person who has ever been regenerated/ saved. There is no such thing taught in Scripture that a person has the ability or even enough light to understand the Gospel. 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Draw here represents being regenerate/saved

Men are SPIRITUALLY dead....not dead.
They can still hear and see and think.

They are still able to seek after God.

1 Cor 2:14 is speaking about those that do not believe.
It says nothing about being dead.
It says that the word of God must be spiritually discerned.
The unsaved do not understand the same way that the saved do.
thanks to the Holy Spirit...

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course. Why do you ask such a silly question, to which you would know the answer if you've ever read anything I've posted in this thread?


They do, but if that's all there is, then you're begging the question by assuming that they are not spiritually dead and don't first need a work of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to respond, much less just to see the truth of the gospel.

What is the work of the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.
John 16:8

Do you believe that this conviction is for everyone...the world...
or just for those that God has regenerated?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus tells us, one comes to be of God by being born of God the Spirit, so unless one is Born of God they cant hear the words of God Jn 8:47

Jn 3:5-8

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

BF,
The above has nothing to do with what JLB is discussing.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

That means that one must be born again in order to become born again.

It means one must be born again to spiritually hear and understand Gods word.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace



It means one must be born again to spiritually hear and understand Gods word.

Oh.
Well I agree with that.

It just doesn't seem to be what you're saying.
We most certainly need to be born again to understand God's word.
Atheists and non-believers in general, just don't understand what we do.
In fact, sometimes they say funny things about what they think Christians believe.

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

Men are SPIRITUALLY dead....not dead.

Exactly, so they cant hear/understand spiritually, spiritual truth such as the Gospel. For it to be of any Spiritual profit the Gospel must be spiritually heard and discerned.

 

[brightfame52]

Oh.
Well I agree with that.

It just doesn't seem to be what you're saying.
We most certainly need to be born again to understand God's word.
Atheists and non-believers in general, just don't understand what we do.
In fact, sometimes they say funny things about what they think Christians believe.

Thats exactly what Im saying. Now if one cant hear spiritually they cant understand the word spiritually Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Man naturally can hear the word of God, however that profits nothing spiritually,

 

[Free]

What is the work of the Holy Spirit?

The work of the Holy Spirit is multitudinous. As the Helper, he will continue to teach believers and bring to their remembrance what Jesus said (John 14:26), will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:8), guide believers "into all the truth" and declare "the things that are to come" (John 16:13), indwells believers and gives them power to do miracles (Acts 2:2-4), gives spiritual gifts (1 Cor 12), etc.

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-the-Holy-Spirit-do.html

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.
John 16:8

Do you believe that this conviction is for everyone...the world...
or just for those that God has regenerated?

I don't see why it wouldn't be everyone, but that doesn't mean that everyone who is convicted will turn from their sin.

 

[JJonas]

Yes I agree. However, it’s what Calvinist’s teach.


Do you believe and therefore promote the Calvinist teaching that says, a person must first be saved, born again, regenerated before they can believe the Gospel?




JLB

If someone believes that faith comes after the salvation, then he denies the “Sola Fide” (salvation is received by faith alone) and therefore strayed away from the truths that were discovered during the reformation (5 Solas).

The Bible testifies to the “Sola Fide” in many places (John 3.16, Ep 2:8, Rom. 4), and to the power of the Word of God (Isa 55:11) to create faith in us (Rom. 10:17) as well as to make us born again (1 Pet. 1:23). We are not called to make speculations to help our mind grasp some mysteries, but to simply believe what the Bible says! Why would Jesus tell us otherwise that we should be like little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3, 11:25)? Little children cannot grasp complex theological systems, but they can believe the word of their father!

I guess that not all calvinists would disagree with the “Sola Fide” (only hypercalvinists?), because some of them like Charles Spurgeon had a very sound doctrine on salvation and preached the cross very powerfully!

 

[GodsGrace]

If someone believes that faith comes after the salvation, then he denies the “Sola Fide” (salvation is received by faith alone) and therefore strayed away from the truths that were discovered during the reformation (5 Solas).

The Bible testifies to the “Sola Fide” in many places (John 3.16, Ep 2:8, Rom. 4), and to the power of the Word of God (Isa 55:11) to create faith in us (Rom. 10:17) as well as to make us born again (1 Pet. 1:23). We are not called to make speculations to help our mind grasp some mysteries, but to simply believe what the Bible says! Why would Jesus tell us otherwise that we should be like little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3, 11:25)? Little children cannot grasp complex theological systems, but they can believe the word of their father!

I guess that not all calvinists would disagree with the “Sola Fide” (only hypercalvinists?), because some of them like Charles Spurgeon had a very sound doctrine on salvation and preached the cross very powerfully!

Hi JJonas,
Welcome to the forum.

I gave you a like and when I read your post just now I realized I may not have understood it.

Sola Fide.
Faith alone.
Faith alone saves.

I believe all Christians believe this.
What is there to grasp?

 

[JJonas]

Hi JJonas,
Welcome to the forum.

Thank you!

I gave you a like and when I read your post just now I realized I may not have understood it.

Sola Fide.
Faith alone.
Faith alone saves.

I believe all Christians believe this.
What is there to grasp?

I was commenting on the question “Do you believe and therefore promote the Calvinist teaching that says, a person must first be saved, born again, regenerated before they can believe the Gospel?” from JLB.

Answering yes to the question of JLB implies not believing what all christians believe! In my view it is putting faith and works on the same level, as not playing a role for salvation but coming after salvation and it is therefore a serious attack on the christian core beliefs on salvation!

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you!


I was commenting on the question “Do you believe and therefore promote the Calvinist teaching that says, a person must first be saved, born again, regenerated before they can believe the Gospel?” from JLB.

Answering yes to the question of JLB implies not believing what all christians believe!

All Christians believe a person must be born again before they can be born again??
Doesn't scripture state that we are saved by HEARING the word of God?
We hear the word....
THEN we are saved.

Not the other way around.

In my view it is putting faith and works on the same level, as not playing a role for salvation but coming after salvation and it is therefore a serious attack on the christian core beliefs on salvation!

I don't know any Christian that believes we are saved by works.
I think there's a misunderstanding here.

 

[Whatever]

Doesn't scripture state that we are saved by HEARING the word of God?

Yes, but I believe that it also says we cannot hear or understand the word unless we are born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The word "see" there means to grasp or understand, like Paul puts it:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Gospel message is surely a thing of the Spirit of God. Jesus and Paul seem to be implying that a natural man does not "know", understand, grasp the Gospel, and does not receive it.

John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Why were they not able to listen to Jesus' word? See the verses quoted above.

I don't know any Christian that believes we are saved by works.

They say this but in fact they and you believe this.
Work = anything a person does to earn a reward.
In your theology, hearing and responding with faith is what saves you. It's offered to everybody, but you earned it by doing what others do not do. Jesus did not save you, He only made it possible for you to save yourself. You chose wisely.

In the Bible (rightly understood) hearing by faith and believing are all gifts of God.

 

[brightfame52]

All Christians believe a person must be born again before they can be born again??
Doesn't scripture state that we are saved by HEARING the word of God?
We hear the word....
THEN we are saved.

Not the other way around.


I don't know any Christian that believes we are saved by works.
I think there's a misunderstanding here.

A lost person cant hear the word of God, cant understand it Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

Yes, but I believe that it also says we cannot hear or understand the word unless we are born again.

Exactly, Jesus tells us who hears the word of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Of God here means " Born of God" ! Jn 1:13

3 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[JJonas]

All Christians believe a person must be born again before they can be born again??

Did I wrote that?

Doesn't scripture state that we are saved by HEARING the word of God?
We hear the word....
THEN we are saved.

Not just by hearing, also by believing (Rom. 10:17). Yes you need to receive what you heard (think of the parable of the Sower)

I don't know any Christian that believes we are saved by works.

Me neither. But I know a few people that are very quick to accuse other christians to believe on a salvation by works!

 

[Iconoclast]

Ungodly people cannot answer the truth of God. They lie,blaspheme, bear false witness, censor people who post truth.
They do not have Biblical morals, so being dishonest is natural to them, as in reality they are natural men.

 

[JJonas]

Yes, but I believe that it also says we cannot hear or understand the word unless we are born again.

Yes but what regenerate us? The Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23)!

They say this but in fact they and you believe this.
Work = anything a person does to earn a reward.
In your theology, hearing and responding with faith is what saves you. It's offered to everybody, but you earned it by doing what others do not do. Jesus did not save you, He only made it possible for you to save yourself. You chose wisely.

As we heard the Gospel, which one of us thought: “let's respond with faith so that we can earn our salvation”?

We can have endless debates and speculations on how the miracle of the new birth occurs. Fact is, we heard the Word of God and we believed what we heard (Rom 10:17), and all the while the Word of God regenerated us (1 Pet. 1:23). Do we need to know the specifics on how faith and new birth occurred to us by the Word of God, despite our darkened understanding and hardened heart? Or does a new born baby need to know how he was conceived before his natural birth? Leave those questions to others: it's enough that we received the Kingdom of God as a little child (Mark 10:15) and not while having sophisticated thoughts on theology (Matt 11:25)!

And who of us can't agree with Eph 2:8-9?: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Who of us is not believing that the work of Jesus on the cross for our salvation as well as the faith on that work were all a gift of God, and therefore we have no reason to glorify ourself for our salvation but that all the glory belongs to God?

But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:23-26)

 

[electedbyHim]

Ungodly people cannot answer the truth of God. They lie,blaspheme, bear false witness, censor people who post truth.
They do not have Biblical morals, so being dishonest is natural to them, as in reality they are natural men.

They are at enmity with God.