GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
How does one move forward from heresy?
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An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The TERM tulip began in the 1930's.
However, you're correct of course....
Calvin was one of the major advocates of reformed doctrine.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
A person must believe to be saved.
The NT does not teach that he must be saved first and Then believe.
It states that only a saved person can UNDERSTAND doctrine, it's refuted by the lost.
For instance 1 cor 2,14.
Those who promote Heresies will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
Heresy like murder or idolatry or sexual immorality, or any other sin must be repented of; confessed as sin to God in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. See 1 John 1:9
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:15-18
Heresy can indeed cause damage to others, even overthrow their faith, as Paul teaches.
- James says it this way -
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
- he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
False doctrine, Heresy is a serious thing to God and is a salvation issue.
Those who promote Heresy will face eternal damnation, "death", if they don't repent.
Heresy is just as serious as murder, sorcery, and idolatry, as Paul so plainly teaches...
- Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9
JLB
I believe at some point, when it is clear that we run into circles, we should stop a debate. Then we can start a new debate ;-). For example, I am still waiting on an answer on the debate if John Bunyan was a calvinist ;-).
I believe that it concerns more precisely that kind of people:
Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned (Tit. 3:10-11)
Intentionality (denying the Lord that bought them) is an important factor: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet. 2:1)
Fact is, that a lot of us believe or believed once some false doctrines about non-essential points and I don't think it means that we are necessarily lost.
Whats the heresey?
Be specific.
HERESY — false doctrine, or teaching that denies one of the foundational beliefs of the church, such as the Lordship or deity of Jesus. The writings of the apostle Paul and other early church leaders make it clear that heretical teachings were a problem in the New Testament church (2 Pet. 2:1).
In the Book of 2 Corinthians, Paul condemned certain “false apostles” and “deceitful workers” who claimed to be “apostles of Christ” (2 Cor. 11:13). These may have been the Judaizers, who tried to force believers to observe the Jewish ritual of Circumcision before they could be accepted as members of the church.
The writer of 1 John also condemned a heretical group known as the Gnostics, who denied the deity of Jesus (1 John 2:22).
Nelson's new illustrated Bible dictionary. 1995 (R. F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, R. K. Harrison, Thomas Nelson Publishers & Thomas Nelson Publishers, Ed.). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc.
HERESY. Propagandism of, forbidden under severe penalties, Deut. 13; Tit. 3:10, 11; 2 John 10, 11. Teachers of, among early Christians, Acts 15:24; 2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:7; 2:4; 2 Pet. 2; Jude 3–16; Rev. 2:2. Paul and Silas accused of, Acts 16:20, 21, 23. Paul accused of, Acts 18:13. Disavowed by Paul, Acts 24:13–16. See Teachers, False.
Swanson, J., & Nave, O. (1994). New Nave's. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
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He meant Arminianism, of course! ;-)
Either we love and obey the truth, because we love God, or we choose to make ourself His enemy.
Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Every single one of the 5 points is heretical.
Look....you even use a MAN to explain the word heresy.
Ironic.
A heresy, as is understood in religion , means a teaching that is not ,accepted by mainline christianity.
Pay attention:
Calvinism came into existence 1,500 years after Jesus.
Does that sound mainline to you?
Anything that falls outside of His Doctrine; The teaching of Christ and His Apostles found in the New Testament.
It's called the Truth.
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
JLB
Lets start here....
What is heretical about the following.
TOTAL DEPRAVITY
THE FALL HAS RESULTED IN SPIRITUAL DEATH TO ALL MEN.
Gen.2:16-17
Romans.5:12
Eph.2:1-3
Col.2:13
FALLEN MAN IS NOW BLIND AND DEAF TO SPIRITUAL TRUTH.
Gen.6:5
Gen.8:21
Ecc.9:3
Jer.17:9
Mark.7:21-23
FALLEN MAN IS NOW UNDER THE CONTROL OF SATAN AND IN BONDAGE TO SIN.
John.8:44
Eph.2:1-2
2Tim.2:25-26
1John.3:10
1John.5:19
Rom.6:20
Titus.3:3
FALLEN MAN, LEFT IN HIS DEAD STATE, IS TOTALLY UNABLE TO REPENT, TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, OR TO COME TO CHRIST.
John.6:44
John.6:65
Rom.3:9 -12
Rom.8:7-8
1Cor.2:14
If you do not see total depravity in the Biblical verses, do you believe that man is basically good?
Just going to leave these here:
Mrk 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mrk 7:22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. (ESV)
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)
Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)
Jas 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (ESV)
1Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. (ESV)
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (ESV)
Mrk 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,
Mrk 7:22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. (ESV)
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (ESV)
Php 2:1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Php 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
Php 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)
Jas 4:6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (ESV)
1Pe 3:8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. (ESV)
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (ESV)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Man had inherited the sin nature from Adam.
He is separated from God as of the age of reason. He tends toward evil until he is born again by believing the gospel and becoming a follower of God incarnate, Jesus, who commanded us to repent. To repent means to go in the opposite direction.
Romans teaches that we are slaves to the one to whom we PRESENT OURSELVES.
This denotes free will.
This denotes that we are ABLE to decide to whom we present OURSELVES.
The two pillars of calvinism...
Absence of free will.
Total depravity.
Go against everything the NT teaches.
Go against everything Jesus taught.
Jesus taught free will by giving us commands.
He taught we are not TOTALLY DEPRAVED because He would not be so foolish as to give us commands He, God, knew we would be UNABLE to follow.
There is no verse conveying total depravity.
It is only necessary to believe this false teachings I order for tulip to function.
Only God's word functions.
All else is but sifting sand.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Agreed on all.
But difficult to be of one mind with beliefs that were not present after Jesus' ascension.
I do love my brethren.
Until the attacks begin that force me to leave this Forum.
Please post the actual scripture, and make each point from the actual words of scripture.
So far this post contains only your words, and references to scriptures, but no actual scripture.
Here is an example:
Those who promote Heresies will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
- those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
JLB
Lets try again.
I am thinking you do not understand Total Depravity.
R.C. Sproul explains.
Total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person.
The verses that I posted in #92 shows that Scripture teaches Total Depravity.
This simply cannot be disputed.
Pick one of the verses and dispute it please.
Proove I am a heretic as you imply.
brightfame52
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