An honest Calvinist view of Total Depravity.

[Fastfredy0]

Doesn't scripture state that we are saved by HEARING the word of God?

NO! If that were true then everyone who heard the gospel of Christ would be saved .... Billy Graham would be hitting 1000. .... besides, you believe people can be saved without hearing of Christ.

Hearing the word of God is a necessary precursor to being born again (though some people like you believe you can be saved without hearing of Christ)

We hear the word....
THEN we are saved.

Not the other way around.

This contradicts previous posts you made in which you insist one can be saved without knowledge of Christ in the current millennium. Thus, according to you it is possible to be saved and then hear the gospel (or not hear it). It's call inclusivism.

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur
be saved without hearing of Christ)

I don't know any Christian that believes we are saved by works.

Definition of works: Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
Since you believe one's faith comes from one's self (free will) then this is a work by definition as it is a "mental effort directed toward the accomplishment of something ... simple logic. Thus you are a Christian that believe in salvation by works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

As we heard the Gospel, which one of us thought: “let's respond with faith so that we can earn our salvation”?

Answer: Everyone that believes in Free Willianism where the term is defined as: The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will. (Source: Google definition)
All those who think they self-determine their salvific faith via Free Willianism logically should believe they "earned" their salvation for, if they are consistent in their logic, they believe their faith was not determined by the divine will of God; rather, it was self-determined and therefore they have reason to boast.
Aside: Now many Free Willianism people don't believe they have reason to boast but that is not logically consistent.

 

[Whatever]

Yes but what regenerate us? The Word of God (1 Pet. 1:23)!

It is the Holy Spirit. He works through the Word.

As we heard the Gospel, which one of us thought: “let's respond with faith so that we can earn our salvation”?

Most people do. It is a free give, but you still take it or reject it. That "taking it" is what makes you different from those who reject it.

1Co 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

You would say that what makes you different from others is your faith, your own personally receiving the message that the others have not.

Calvinists would say that the only thing that makes us different is God's unconditional election of us who totally do not deserve it.

I have heard countless interpretations of
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . . .
As: God looked forward in time and saw who was going to believe and then elected those based on their belief.

Again, your being elected was based on God foreseeing your obedience. Obedience deserves reward. (To me that is the logic of the above interpretation, even if the person saying that doesn't realize it.)

Calvinists say no, we were elected to be obedient at the time of God's choosing.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Again, anti-calvinists interpret the above as "it was given to us because before time began, God foresaw our obedience."

You may not realize the logic of those kind of interpretations, but it is there.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is the Holy Spirit. He works through the Word.

Most people do. It is a free give, but you still take it or reject it. That "taking it" is what makes you different from those who reject it.

1Co 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

You would say that what makes you different from others is your faith, your own personally receiving the message that the others have not.

Calvinists would say that the only thing that makes us different is God's unconditional election of us who totally do not deserve it.

I have heard countless interpretations of
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . . .
As: God looked forward in time and saw who was going to believe and then elected those based on their belief.

Again, your being elected was based on God foreseeing your obedience. Obedience deserves reward. (To me that is the logic of the above interpretation, even if the person saying that doesn't realize it.)

Calvinists say no, we were elected to be obedient at the time of God's choosing.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Again, anti-calvinists interpret the above as "it was given to us because before time began, God foresaw our obedience."

You may not realize the logic of those kind of interpretations, but it is there.

As you've pointed out, Ephesians 1:4 can be understood different ways.

Another way would be that God chose us IN HIM before the beginning. IOW God's plan was to place the saved In Christ before the beginning.
The saved are IN HIM.

The choosing is never persons. God gifted us with free will. He has a plan for our salvation, but He will not force us to accept it.

Love must be free because coerced love is useless to an intelligent person, let alone the creator of all.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is the Holy Spirit. He works through the Word.

Most people do. It is a free give, but you still take it or reject it. That "taking it" is what makes you different from those who reject it.

1Co 4:7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

You would say that what makes you different from others is your faith, your own personally receiving the message that the others have not.

Calvinists would say that the only thing that makes us different is God's unconditional election of us who totally do not deserve it.

I have heard countless interpretations of
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world . . . .
As: God looked forward in time and saw who was going to believe and then elected those based on their belief.

Again, your being elected was based on God foreseeing your obedience. Obedience deserves reward. (To me that is the logic of the above interpretation, even if the person saying that doesn't realize it.)

Calvinists say no, we were elected to be obedient at the time of God's choosing.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Again, anti-calvinists interpret the above as "it was given to us because before time began, God foresaw our obedience."

You may not realize the logic of those kind of interpretations, but it is there.

God saves sinners in Christ.There is one truth, and many misunderstandings.
God does not put saved people in Christ, as there were no saved people before the world was, only sinners in need of a Saviour.

 

[GodsGrace]

God saves sinners in Christ.There is one truth, and many misunderstandings.
God does not put saved people in Christ, as there were no saved people before the world was, only sinners in need of a Saviour.

According to Calvinism:
God didn't know who he was going to save?!

So calvinists believe in open theism?
:shock

 

[JJonas]

It is the Holy Spirit. He works through the Word.

We have been regenerated through the word of God (1 Peter 1:23), and Jesus said that his words are spirit and life (John 6:63). We can't separate the Word of God from the Holy Spirit!

Most people do.

I don't know a single christian, who by the time of his conversion did philosophy about free will. No, everyone I know heard the Gospel, was convicted, believed and received Jesus, so that they became born again (John 1:12-13). When I was born again, I had no clue about the debate on free will, I did not know what were calvinism and arminism, but I received the Kingdom of God as a child!

It is a free give, but you still take it or reject it. That "taking it" is what makes you different from those who reject it.

There are those who receive the free gift of God, and those who don't (John 1:11-13).

Again, your being elected was based on God foreseeing your obedience...

Where in the bible it is said that the reason God elected me was because he foresaw my obedience? If it's not in the Bible, I don't need to make speculations (1 Cor. 4:6)!

... Obedience deserves reward. (To me that is the logic of the above interpretation, even if the person saying that doesn't realize it.)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe [disobey] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36)
We were lost and enemy of God (Rom 5:10). God provided for our salvation and our reconciliation with Him under his terms (Acts 4:12, John 12:36). By believing, we followed His terms to become saved. There is nothing about being rewarded for our own performances, but it is all about God being faithful to His Word and doing to us according to His Word! What occasion is there then for boasting? Did we heard the german or the japanese officials boast about allegedly deserving peace because they accepted the terms of their capitulation?

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Again, anti-calvinists interpret the above as "it was given to us because before time began, God foresaw our obedience."

Someone can only be an anti-calvinist if he is making a mission to attack calvinism. Not all non-calvinists are anti-calvinists. And not all non-calvinists are making this interpretation.

 

[JJonas]

Answer: Everyone that believes in Free Willianism where the term is defined as: The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will. (Source: Google definition)

I think that a lot of people that speak about free will don't have this definition in mind, where the human will would be completely decoupled from a divine predestination (or at least influence), as this definition suggests.

The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Prov 21:1 is incompatible with the definition of free will you gave, but a lot of people who insist that we have a free will, will still acknowledge this verse to be true, which prove that they have a different definition of free will!

Aside: Now many Free Willianism people don't believe they have reason to boast but that is not logically consistent.

I guess that a lot of people aren't interested in the depth of the philosophies dealing with the relationship between the sovereignty of God and the will of man. You may think that they are not logically consistent, but so think muslims about us concerning our belief on the Trinity! There are a lot of mysteries that we can only believe by faith, although we can't find a logical constitency! But for the rational greek way of thinking which caracterize us, mystery is hard to accept and we prefer to explain it away by building a lot of theological constructs!

 

[Whatever]

I don't know a single christian, who by the time of his conversion did philosophy about free will.

But that is the default idea in every person's mind. Ask a 5 year old if they have free will.

There are those who receive the free gift of God, and those who don't (John 1:11-13).

Yes, but your passage says who those are who receive the free gift.
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It looks to me like it is saying "who were already born of God."
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . .

It does not say whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ becomes born of God.

Recap:
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . .
But as many as received Him . . .were born . . .of God.

Where in the bible it is said that the reason God elected me was because he foresaw my obedience? If it's not in the Bible, I don't need to make speculation

Every non-Calvinist preacher when they come to Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. . always feel compelled to add that this means God looked into the future and saw who would believe and chose people based on their choosing Him. They don't want their people to get the idea that God chooses unconditionally.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe [disobey] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36)

Yes, has eternal life, not gets eternal life afterwards.
This is getting too long and probably won't make any difference so I end here.

 

[Whatever]

God does not put saved people in Christ, as there were no saved people before the world was, only sinners in need of a Saviour.

There were no people at all before the world, not even sinners. But there was the Father's eternal plan to "bring many sons to glory" (Heb 2:10) and these sons were chosen before the foundation of the world and given to Jesus (Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.) And these Jesus came for and atoned for.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

It can't be any clearer that that. Jesus has sheep given to Him by the Father and only these sheep hear and listen to him and the goats will not and do not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

According to Calvinism:
God didn't know who he was going to save?!

So calvinists believe in open theism?

God knows all things. So He knows who he will save and whom He will pass over according to Calvinism. (Jacob I loved and Esau I hated before they were born)

Now, Free Willianism does not believe God knows all things if they use a little logic. According to Free Willianism:
Premise 1: It up to the individual to use Free Will (self determination) to save themselves (Free Will not found in Bible)
Premise 2: It is not possible for God to know what nothing will do in the future
Conclusion: Therefore God is not All Knowing because He had no idea when nothing (people in the future) would do

 

[Fastfredy0]

I think that a lot of people that speak about free will don't have this definition in mind, where the human will would be completely decoupled from a divine predestination (or at least influence), as this definition suggests.

I agree. Most people don't know exact;u what they are talking about when they speak of Free Will. There are several definitions. Probably the most common one is: The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will. Source: Google
Most people IMO have believe Free Will is the ability to choose which is obtuse. Free will is about choosing and about the reasons that determine why one chooses.

The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Prov 21:1 is incompatible with the definition of free will you gave, but a lot of people who insist that we have a free will, will still acknowledge this verse to be true, which prove that they have a different definition of free will!

Agreed

 

[Fastfredy0]

Every non-Calvinist preacher when they come to Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. . always feel compelled to add that this means God looked into the future and saw who would believe and chose people based on their choosing Him.

Agreed. But it is not possible for God to look into the future and know what a person will do based on a person's self-determined (not influenced/caused by God) because it is not possible for even God to know what nothing will do and nothing is what we were before the foundation of the earth. ex nihilo nihil fit

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. But it is not possible for God to look into the future and know what a person will do based on a person's self-determined (not influenced/caused by God) because it is not possible for even God to know what nothing will do and nothing is what we were before the foundation of the earth. ex nihilo nihil fit

Wow.
That's one sovereign God you have faith in!!
EVEN HE doesn't know something....!

Just wow.

 

[JJonas]

But that is the default idea in every person's mind. Ask a 5 year old if they have free will.

My point was, that at the time of his conversion, someone's conception on free will played no role. Indeed, this was the work of God; grace and faith were both a free gift of God.

It looks to me like it is saying "who were already born of God."
1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . .

You can't find someone that believes that is not born of God, because the new birth happens hand in hand with faith, even if faith would precede new birth or new birth would precede faith. Therefore, whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. I tend to believe that faith and new birth happen simultaneously. But I don't see why it would be so important to know in which order new birth and faith were given to us. Main thing, they were given to us!

Every non-Calvinist preacher when they come to Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. . always feel compelled to add that this means God looked into the future and saw who would believe and chose people based on their choosing Him. They don't want their people to get the idea that God chooses unconditionally.

Not all non-Calvinist preachers feel compelled to explain away what is a mystery in their eyes. Granted, a lot of preachers do that, Calvinist or non-Calvinist. A lot of them want to force God to comply with their own philosophy. But God is God! He is not who we wish he is, but is who he revealed to be in the Bible. He does not what we want that he does, but he does what he will!

This is getting too long and probably won't make any difference so I end here.

OK I understand. But do you understand that we were discussing about non-essential questions? Therefore it is best to accept that we have a different opinion and move forward.

 

[eddif]

You have chosen to turn to the teaching of Mr Calvin instead of scripture.

For some reason I believe Calvin preached Jesus jChrist and him crucified.

We are led to believe Calvin preached Tulip. Of all the sermons of Calvin I have heard translated, j have never heard a sermon where he preached TULIP.

The sidekicks of Calvin major on TULIP.

Then what would a redneck possibly know
eddif

 

[JLB]

If you believed the Gospel you would know, read about TULIP

I read the scriptures.


Nothing in the scriptures about being saved first, without hearing and believing the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

Tulip Truths are based on scripture, thats why they're the Gospel and unfortunately you oppose the Gospel

So you claim.


The scriptures are the truth.


TULIP is a man made doctrine.



Thanks for exposing where your theology comes from.

man.

 

[Whatever]

OK I understand. But do you understand that we were discussing about non-essential questions? Therefore it is best to accept that we have a different opinion and move forward.

I understand. But it we all just move forward, then there will be no reason for this debate forum.

 

[Whatever]

We are led to believe Calvin preached Tulip. Of all the sermons of Calvin I have heard translated, j have never heard a sermon where he preached TULIP.

That is because TULIP came around after Calvin. But all the doctrines in TULIP were taught and preached by Calvin.

The acronym TULIP came about after a bunch of followers of James Arminius came out against Calvinism. They posted their "Remonstrance" in basically 4 points. When the Calvinists answered their arguments, they broke the 4th point down into 2 points, and that is how the 5 points came about.