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Attention Athiest and non-Christians

Re: care

Novum said:
"making discernment" sounds an awful lot like "passing judgment". What's the difference?

Why are you here? Arent you here because you think us Christians are disillusioned? Isn't that jugding us too? It is ok for you to do but not for others to do? Let's not play games.
 
Re: care

gingercat said:
Why are you here? Arent you here because you think us Christians are disillusioned? Isn't that jugding us too? It is ok for you to do but not for others to do? Let's not play games.

I have never stated that nor meant to imply as such.

Please answer my question.
 
Re: care

Novum said:
gingercat said:
Why are you here? Arent you here because you think us Christians are disillusioned? Isn't that jugding us too? It is ok for you to do but not for others to do? Let's not play games.

I have never stated that nor meant to imply as such.

Please answer my question.

I already did. You just don't like it or dont want to accept it. You are the one who talk about others but exclude yourself. You are just playing saint here.
 
Re: care

gingercat said:
I already did. You just don't like it or dont want to accept it. You are the one who talk about others but exclude yourself. You are just playing saint here.

Five posts ago, you stated that you were "making discernment" about the 2.1 billion christians about this planet. I asked what you meant by that.

I cannot, for the life of me, find an answer to my question in the last four posts - though I can find some insults directed my way. Perhaps you could indicate where you answered my question?
 
Re: care

Novum said:
gingercat said:
I already did. You just don't like it or dont want to accept it. You are the one who talk about others but exclude yourself. You are just playing saint here.

Five posts ago, you stated that you were "making discernment" about the 2.1 billion christians about this planet. I asked what you meant by that.

I cannot, for the life of me, find an answer to my question in the last four posts - though I can find some insults directed my way. Perhaps you could indicate where you answered my question?

Good day novum, I don't play gemes.
 
Re: care

gingercat said:
Good day novum, I don't play gemes.

You refuse to answer a simple, direct question. Good day to you as well. :roll:
 
I do reject all religions that claim divine inspiration since none of them have any evidence to the claims they make.

I apologise for not remembering who made this quote; but I'm hoping they will answer my question.

Is it fair to say that you've rejected religion more than you have rejected God?
 
Klee shay said:
I apologise for not remembering who made this quote; but I'm hoping they will answer my question.

Is it fair to say that you've rejected religion more than you have rejected God?

I didn't pen that, but I hope you won't mind if I try to respond. :)

If you were to ask me what the single greatest, most prevalent goal of religion was, I would reply "To make money and stay in business". I suspect that some members of this board - Christian members - would agree with me.

But no, I would not say that I have rejected religion. Some religions (for lack of a better word) I have studied, like Deism, Buddhism, and Unitarian Universalism, I find to be far less "objectionable" than others. But that's merely a personal choice based on my own criteria.

What about god? I have great difficulty with the concept of a god who is both omnipotent and omniscient (forget the others for now), and I believe that having both of these qualities in a single being brings some logical problems that I don't think can be easily resolved. Indeed, some atheists believe that a being with these qualities is logically impossible and therefore cannot possibly exist.

What about a very powerful (but not omnipotent) god? Again, I don't know. I see our best science - our astrophysicists, our astronomers, our quantum mechanics theorists - continually make more and more discoveries about the universe. As time goes on, we continue to learn more and more. As our technology improves along with our science, I have no doubt that we will continue to solve the universe's greatest mysteries. I wish I could be alive five hundred years from now to see where we're at.

If I had to pick a "faith", I would cite my respect for science and belief that we will, one day, intellectually conquer the universe.
 
Novum,

I don't have the report or statistics but I know many great scientists start out to prove the Bible is not besed on truth but end up finding out It is truth; and became believers.

Have you ever read that report?

Can anyone show novum what I am talking about?
 
gingercat said:
Novum,

I don't have the report or statistics but I know many great scientists start out to prove the Bible is not besed on truth but end up finding out It is truth; and became believers.

Have you ever read that report?

Can anyone show novum what I am talking about?

So what, even if it's true? The process also happens the other way - people start to question their religion and end up deconverting. I would even argue that this reverse process is more common than your process.

But that's argument from authority. It doesn't matter, for us, what "great scientists" do - whether it's converting or deconverting. Just because they say it on TV doesn't mean it's true. :)
 
No-one can ever understand nor really quantify God like you would by a series of scientific experiments. You merely have to trust that he exists and allow the evidence to manifest itself. Sound silly? Well that's how scientists decided to tackle science in the first place. They first had to trust they could understand in order for the evidence to manifest in their experiments.

The only way I know how to prove God exists to someone who doesn't believe (based on foolproof evidence) is ask them to conduct their own experiement in challenging God. For example; I didn't realise it at the time when I took a break from believing the good in God and chose to accuse him of making people suffer for his own enjoyment instead, he took up that challenge and eventually proved me wrong. If I hadn't of accused him of being a pain-monger, perhaps he still would have remained irrelevant to me in substance?

God only reveals himself when he is challenged to by a curious mind and desire to learn. Doesn't matter if you have strong faith or weak faith - you challenge God and he will meet it with understanding.

If I had to pick a "faith", I would cite my respect for science and belief that we will, one day, intellectually conquer the universe.

I find this faith you choose in preference to anything else, similar in design to Christianity. Even though you cannot possibly see the extent of the universe to even know how to conquer it - you still believe it is possible. So too is it with Christianity. Even though you cannot see the extent of God nor even how to conquer understanding him - you still believe.

I thought it was interesting there is a different source of belief but still the same application in practice. You still desire to believe in something even if you choose it's not going to be God. Have you ever thought to challenge the Big Guy personally, mono to mono? :wink:
 
Klee shay said:
I find this faith you choose in preference to anything else, similar in design to Christianity. Even though you cannot possibly see the extent of the universe to even know how to conquer it - you still believe it is possible. So too is it with Christianity. Even though you cannot see the extent of God nor even how to conquer understanding him - you still believe.

I thought it was interesting there is a different source of belief but still the same application in practice. You still desire to believe in something even if you choose it's not going to be God. Have you ever thought to challenge the Big Guy personally, mono to mono? :wink:

A well written post, Klee shay. :)

Now, as for my "faith", I think perhaps I was using the wrong word. I don't think that my relationship to or feelings about science are quite the same as a Christian's relationship to or feelings about God. But language is limited, so hopefully I got across my message regardless. ;)

Your last sentence is interesting to me. How would I "challenge" God?
 
"Faith" is a weird word isn't it? No real boundaries or quantifiable substance. It just is. I'll take the context you meant more liberally rather than literally as far as Christianity is concerned. :wink:

Novum said:
Your last sentence is interesting to me. How would I "challenge" God?

With a fierce heart! :P

Whatever you don't get about him; tell him that. Like; "God, I don't get you, I've never gotten you - why should I believe in you?" Whether you shout it out loud or just say it in your own mind. Bloody well confront this diety who dares to call himself God and challenge him to prove Himself relevant to you.

God knows your mind, your fears and everything you desire to know in this world. If he can't answer you then there is no God as far as I'm concerned. If he can't prove himself relevant to you, then why should you believe in Him? Only a fool would pursue someone who has no substance.

But you have to challenge him personally first. You have to ask this "God" fellow who he is, his relevance in your life and why should you believe in him? You'll be amazed at how clearly he can respond. :o
 
Klee shay said:
But you have to challenge him personally first. You have to ask this "God" fellow who he is, his relevance in your life and why should you believe in him? You'll be amazed at how clearly he can respond. :o

I have a devout Christian friend with whom I recently had a similar conversation. He claimed, just like you are here, that if I really wanted to speak with or know God, all I needed to do is ask. He told me to go into a room alone and pray to God, either aloud or in my head. He said that he was certain that God would respond to me and that I would become a believer.

But I objected. I asked him to consider the possibility, no matter how unlikely, that God would not appear to me when I asked him. What then?

He replied that, if I asked sincerely and with all my heart, there would be no doubt that God would appear to me.

Again, I objected. Why? I said that, in the event that God did not appear to me, my friend would just accuse me of not being sincere enough. No matter how hard I tried, if I were to fail then my friend would have an instant escape hatch - blame me for not being sincere!

So, I told him that I thought he was setting me up to fail. No matter how sincere I was or how hard I tried, it would instantly and completely be my fault for not being sincere. He dismissed my objection and repeated his certainty that God would surely appear to me.

So, I did it anyway. I went alone into my bedroom and prayed as hard as I could, silently and aloud. I waited 5 minutes, and after nothing happened, I tried again - both silently and aloud. Nothing.

I reported back to my friend what had happened. Just as I predicted, he railed at me and accused me of being insincere and not trying hard at all. In the end, I was right - he was setting me up to fail.

---

So, while I can understand what you are asking me to do (and why you ask me to do it), I can't help but think that you are doing the same thing my friend did - setting me up to fail. What am I to do, then?
 
Novum said:
So, while I can understand what you are asking me to do (and why you ask me to do it), I can't help but think that you are doing the same thing my friend did - setting me up to fail. What am I to do, then?

I can see your friend had good intentions but he certainly has no patience for God's timing. :wink:

I've been with my husband for over eight years (not married all that time) and it's only been recently that he's opening his eyes to the real God. I've prompted him often to pray if he has any confusion in his life, but like a true survivalist he never thought he needed God's help. I don't know what really changed in him recently to seek the God I have come to know and love, but its' taken him eight years to understand God is accessible and does reply.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear in my post about timing. When you put the request out there, God will answer it when he knows you stand the best chance of hearing his reply. Does that sounds like a cop-out? Right now it may not give you any comfort but when God's timing is right you'll appreciate exactly why he made you wait.

For example, when I was angry with God all those years ago, I wasn't ready to hear anything from Him. I was so angry, angry, angry, and anything he sent my way would have been met with anger. It wasnt' until I was so exhausted from all my upset and I'd reached rock bottom in my life that he sent me an answer. How did he reply to me? Let's just say he opened another doorway and said; "let's try this again shall we, but only without the anger this time."

When I dealt with him after that, I did it with humility instead of anger. When I prayed it was knowing that I hated him so aggressively, and yet when I hit rock bottom he still came back to help me. Now I was ready to appreciate what he had to offer in my life.

So while I urge you to confront the Big Guy, I'm not implying for one second that his response will be anything you expect or when you expect it. I said that you'll be amazed at how clearly he can respond, but to get to that point other things will have to pass by first. I don't know what those other things are and you won't either - only in hindsight will you see where things started to change for you.

I know that it all sounds so unrealistic, so magical and mysterious, why would any intelligent person want to go down that path? When you challenge God though it is in His nature to reply. You've no doubt heard the parable involving giving a child a stone when they asked for bread? God isn't in the business of giving out stones when his children ask for bread. If you've asked for bread and you haven't received it yet, then you WILL SEE God's plan in hindsight. For he will reply. Whether you were sincere in your prayers or not - God is designing the right time to reply when he knows you will best see it came from him.

He knows how intelligent you are, so independent and so capable of looking after yourself. Now is not the right time to reply. When you need him most though, then he will come to you. I had to want to end my life before God came to me. My will was too great before then to make room for another's.

I'm sorry your friend's advice merely set you up for disappointment. I can see they meant well but they were trying to do God's job by telling you when He would respond. God decides the time and place.

I hope this fact doesn't leave you filled with more disappointment? All I know from my experience however is when you need him the most, he will come. If you have asked God to reveal himself to you in this lifetime, He will do it before you die. That's the only time schedule I can offer on behalf of God. Sincere or not, you've asked God for bread and he won't deliever a stone. You won't die before you've tasted of that bread and then you'll have a choice to make.

While God doesn't always answer when we want him to, He always keeps His Word. :D
 
For example, when I was angry with God all those years ago, I wasn't ready to hear anything from Him. I was so angry, angry, angry, and anything he sent my way would have been met with anger. It wasnt' until I was so exhausted from all my upset and I'd reached rock bottom in my life that he sent me an answer. How did he reply to me? Let's just say he opened another doorway and said; "let's try this again shall we, but only without the anger this time."

I know you're talking of your own personal experience, but I can't help but get the hint that you might be referring to me as well. To clear that up, it is logically impossible (and irrational) for me to be angry with, love, hate, laugh with, be annoyed with, or admire something that I do not believe exists. Try it yourself, using the invisible pink unicorn that lives in your kitchen. ;)

Klee shay said:
I hope this fact doesn't leave you filled with more disappointment? All I know from my experience however is when you need him the most, he will come. If you have asked God to reveal himself to you in this lifetime, He will do it before you die. That's the only time schedule I can offer on behalf of God. Sincere or not, you've asked God for bread and he won't deliever a stone. You won't die before you've tasted of that bread and then you'll have a choice to make.

While God doesn't always answer when we want him to, He always keeps His Word. :D

Before I die? I'm not so sure that's fair - why should I have to wait for so long, while others get it easy?

Regardless, I don't know what it would take to convert me. But if god exists, and if he is omniscient, then he would know what it'd take. Until then, it seems that I'm doing fine on my own. :)
 
Novum said:
before I die? I'm not so sure that's fair - why should I have to wait for so long, while others get it easy?

Novum,

It is hard for men to admit their weakness and are also very prideful compare to the women.

I hope you be honest and open to God and don't let your pride pass God's offering. Many times even when you want help from others you just won't do it. When you feel weak just ask God to help you by reading the New Testament thoroughly and change your life style according to Jesus' teachings. God is powerful when you feel weak! God loves humble.

Love, hitomi
 
gingercat said:
It is hard for men to admit their weakness and are also very prideful compare to the women.

What are you trying to say here? It sounds like you're bordering on sexism...

I hope you be honest and open to God and don't let your pride pass God's offering. Many times even when you want help from others you just won't do it.

I'm sorry, have we met? That's untrue - and how could you possibly claim to know anything personal about me?

When you feel weak just ask God to help you by reading the New Testament thoroughly and change your life style according to Jesus' teachings. God is powerful when you feel weak! God loves humble.

I think I lead a happy, fulfilled life. I have a great family and a great group of friends, I exercise regularly, I enjoy my classes at university, and I have a great internship lined up for this summer. Sure, things don't always go well - I've mentioned elsewhere that my younger brother has made a lot of poor choices in his life - but with love and support from my family and friends I've been able to make it through. I guess that's where we differ. From what I've been through so far, through all the times that things have been tough, I've always been able to get by without a god.
 
Novum said:
I think I lead a happy, fulfilled life. I have a great family and a great group of friends, I exercise regularly, I enjoy my classes at university, and I have a great internship lined up for this summer. Sure, things don't always go well - I've mentioned elsewhere that my younger brother has made a lot of poor choices in his life - but with love and support from my family and friends I've been able to make it through. I guess that's where we differ. From what I've been through so far, through all the times that things have been tough, I've always been able to get by without a god.

It seems that you are highly intelligent and bright young man with full of future. You also seem very talented from your posts.

God gave you so many gifts that He want you to use for His glory. You will be much, much more powerful if you become His follower. He is expecting a lot from you, my friend.
 
Novum said:
To clear that up, it is logically impossible (and irrational) for me to be angry with, love, hate, laugh with, be annoyed with, or admire something that I do not believe exists. Try it yourself, using the invisible pink unicorn that lives in your kitchen.

There's a pink unicorn living in my kitchen??? :o

Of course I'm joking, LOL. If there was an instruction manual written about how to see the invisible unicorn living in my kitchen however; would I rather believe what my eyes couldn't see or would I start to question how invisible that unicorn really was? :wink:

I take what you meant by your point though. :D

Novum said:
Before I die? I'm not so sure that's fair - why should I have to wait for so long, while others get it easy?

It may look easy for others but look under the mere surface and you will see a different picture. To realise the God I know and love today, I had to be born into the arms of a mother who was emotionally naive and a father who abandoned his family after teaching his daughters to fear violence and alcohol abuse. I had to endure sexual abuse from my step-father and a beating from my mother who thought I was lying of the abuse at first. I've learned to live with insulin dependent diabetes and feeling like a reject for most of my life.

If that's your idea of easy, you're welcome to it, LOL. Somehow I think you'd prefer the blessings God gave you in your family and friends though. They sound like a loving and supporting bunch. Coming from where I have, I can already see where God has blessed you.

Am I jealous of what you have? No. If I was jealous then how could I appreciate what I do have. My biological parents still love me and I them. Much peace has passed between us since those early days of terrible mistakes.

Novum said:
Regardless, I don't know what it would take to convert me. But if god exists, and if he is omniscient, then he would know what it'd take. Until then, it seems that I'm doing fine on my own.

Of course you will do fine, and God is still watching over you. If your heart is good Novum and you desire only to bring peace to others, then don't think for one minute God hasn't noticed. Everything you do he sees and yet He still pays you the respect of allowing you to choose whether you see him or not.

Keep treating others as you would have them treat you, and you're half way there. We need more genuinely kind people in this world. :D
 
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