Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[Novum]

It may look easy for others but look under the mere surface and you will see a different picture. To realise the God I know and love today, I had to be born into the arms of a mother who was emotionally naive and a father who abandoned his family after teaching his daughters to fear violence and alcohol abuse. I had to endure sexual abuse from my step-father and a beating from my mother who thought I was lying of the abuse at first. I've learned to live with insulin dependent diabetes and feeling like a reject for most of my life.

If that's your idea of easy, you're welcome to it, LOL.

Err, when I said "easy", I meant that some people seem to blessed with god's presence (or a belief in god) while others do not. It would appear that those people "have it easy", while I myself may live my entire life without it.

Somehow I think you'd prefer the blessings God gave you in your family and friends though. They sound like a loving and supporting bunch. Coming from where I have, I can already see where God has blessed you.

I guess that's where a difference in worldview comes in. Where you see a blessing from your god, I see a social network (my friends and family) that has been developed, tempered, strengthened, and tested over many years.

Am I jealous of what you have? No. If I was jealous then how could I appreciate what I do have. My biological parents still love me and I them. Much peace has passed between us since those early days of terrible mistakes.

Just to be nitpicky, I'm not so sure that "jealousy for others" and "appreciation for what you have" are mutually exclusive. I may recognize and appreciate what I have, yet that does not preclude me from seeing qualities in others of which I am jealous or envious.

Of course you will do fine, and God is still watching over you. If your heart is good Novum and you desire only to bring peace to others, then don't think for one minute God hasn't noticed. Everything you do he sees and yet He still pays you the respect of allowing you to choose whether you see him or not.

Keep treating others as you would have them treat you, and you're half way there. We need more genuinely kind people in this world. :D

What is the other half?

 

[Klee shay]

Err, when I said "easy", I meant that some people seem to blessed with god's presence (or a belief in god) while others do not. It would appear that those people "have it easy", while I myself may live my entire life without it.

I'd like to think it would be easy being wealthy too, but until I've experienced it for myself, how would I truly know? :wink:

Where you see a blessing from your god, I see a social network (my friends and family) that has been developed, tempered, strengthened, and tested over many years.

Suppose you didn't have that network of family and friends though. What if you inherited a dysfunctional family like mine...is that just the luck of the draw?

Just to be nitpicky, I'm not so sure that "jealousy for others" and "appreciation for what you have" are mutually exclusive. I may recognize and appreciate what I have, yet that does not preclude me from seeing qualities in others of which I am jealous or envious.

True, but when that appreciation starts at the fundamental basis of a person's identity - in other words "family" - if jealousy enters the picture here you quickly lose appreciation for everything you have.

What you describe is someone who has enough confidence to afford jealousy. Those who have very little to begin with can't afford much. :wink:

 

[Novum]

I'd like to think it would be easy being wealthy too, but until I've experienced it for myself, how would I truly know? :wink:

I don't suppose you really would "truly" know unless you were wealthy yourself. But you can read stories about, or interviews with, or speeches given by wealthy people. You might even know a few of them, or get the chance to follow one around for a day. Putting that all together will give you a pretty darn good idea what it might be like.

Suppose you didn't have that network of family and friends though. What if you inherited a dysfunctional family like mine...is that just the luck of the draw?

Yes, it's the luck of the draw. You can't control your family any more than you can control your skin color, hair color, or height. But that doesn't mean you should resign yourself to what you were given.

I have very few living relatives left - less than 20, I'd say. My parents are in the process of getting a divorce, and my younger brother flunked out of college. Things could certainly be better for me. ;) But despite all of this, I have tried to do my best with what I have and go from there.

True, but when that appreciation starts at the fundamental basis of a person's identity - in other words "family" - if jealousy enters the picture here you quickly lose appreciation for everything you have.

What you describe is someone who has enough confidence to afford jealousy. Those who have very little to begin with can't afford much. :wink:

Fair enough. ;)

 

[Klee shay]

What is the other half?

Forgot about this question, sorry.

The other half is discovering *why* you do it? When you find the answer to that one, you will find God.

I mean why should you treat others as you would have them treat you? Good Karma perhaps? Will it make the world a nicer place to live? It makes you feel good on the inside?

Why though? I mean, really, why? After all, Karma is irrational to a scientific mind - it's too unpredictable. Making the world a nicer place is not a realistic objective, considering the world is so big and you're just one person - how do you get around to everyone? And does it really make you feel good on the inside when someone rejects your respect and throws it back in your face?

It's not enough to simply be nice and expect it to make a difference to mankind is it? Doing the actions of a good deed is only half the journey. You want me to say outright that God is the other half, don't you? But I know you're an intelligent guy and can figure that one out for yourself. :wink:

God bless your curious mind Novum, may it bring you more than simply knowledge.

 

[Novum]

I mean why should you treat others as you would have them treat you? Good Karma perhaps?

I don't believe in Karma myself, but sure.

Will it make the world a nicer place to live?

If everyone were to follow the golden rule? I believe so, yes.

It makes you feel good on the inside?

Sure. It certainly has in the past, and I have every indication that it will continue to.

Why though? I mean, really, why? After all, Karma is irrational to a scientific mind - it's too unpredictable. Making the world a nicer place is not a realistic objective, considering the world is so big and you're just one person - how do you get around to everyone?

By having realistic expectations. I do not expect to change the world myself, but I can do what I can. That said, there are no shortage of people who have changed the world - some good, like Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Bill Gates, and some bad, like Chairman Mao, Hitler, or Mussolini. It's demonstrably untrue to say that one person cannot change the world - so yes, I think it is a realistic objective to change the world or make it a nicer place.

And does it really make you feel good on the inside when someone rejects your respect and throws it back in your face?

That hardly ever happens. But if and when it does, that does not mean my efforts were in vain. Maybe next time I offer help, that person will accept it. Or maybe he or she will accept next time someone else comes along.

It's not enough to simply be nice and expect it to make a difference to mankind is it? Doing the actions of a good deed is only half the journey. You want me to say outright that God is the other half, don't you? But I know you're an intelligent guy and can figure that one out for yourself. :wink:

What I'd really like you to say is that there is no other half. ;)

We live on a tiny little rock in an unimpressive corner of a vast universe. We only survive for a few short years in the sun, so it is vitally important that we make of this life everything we can. The golden rule is an excellent means towards that end - it's simple, straightforward, and it's something that everyone can understand and try to follow. From there, it's a natural progression into more complex ethical theory, followed by the realization that even though you are only one person out of 6.5 billion, you can make a difference.

God bless your curious mind Novum, may it bring you more than simply knowledge.

Yes, there is more to be desired! Happiness, security, liberty, friendship, and courage, among others.

 

[Novum]

Klee Shay -

Are we really that different, you and I?

We both value happiness, and security, and friendship, and love.

We both have less-than-perfect families, though we've managed to get by nonetheless.

We both recognize the power of the golden rule and we can understand the good it can bring for mankind.

We both know that it's possible to, at the same time, be happy and secure yet still desire something more.

We both lack a belief in the gods of ancient Greece, the gods of the native Africans, the gods of the Chinese, or any number of literally thousands of others, including Accla (Incan), Odin (Norse), and Baron-Samedi (Caribbean).

Yet despite these numerous similarities, there remains one glaring difference. It's deceptively simple, yet clearly prevalent.

What is that difference? I simply believe in one fewer god than you do.

 

[Klee shay]

I don't suppose you really would "truly" know unless you were wealthy yourself. But you can read stories about, or interviews with, or speeches given by wealthy people. You might even know a few of them, or get the chance to follow one around for a day. Putting that all together will give you a pretty darn good idea what it might be like.

I can see your logic and won't deny it. Until my fortune is on the line for real however, I won't put value in my imagined experience though. :wink:

Yes, it's the luck of the draw. You can't control your family any more than you can control your skin color, hair color, or height. But that doesn't mean you should resign yourself to what you were given.

I agree to the latter but not the former. The luck of the draw is too random. A person's lot in life has to mean something other than random chance. Otherwise mankind is just a bunch of accidents waiting to happen, LOL.

I have very few living relatives left - less than 20, I'd say. My parents are in the process of getting a divorce, and my younger brother flunked out of college. Things could certainly be better for me. But despite all of this, I have tried to do my best with what I have and go from there.

Sorry to hear about your family situation but you sound like you're taking a mature approach about it all. If you ever want to talk to someone about your parent's divorcing, you can talk to me. For the most part you'll try to keep it under control, but sometimes it can wreak havoc with your comfort zones too. There is nothing wrong with you if it does.

Doesn't seem to matter how old or how young you are when your parent's divorce, it always ends up effecting you in some way. Completely normal. Must be hard on your parent's though. Sorry to hear this is the reality you must all face now. At least you can do it together.

 

[Klee shay]

It's been a pleasure chatting with you Novum. I respect your ability to make informed decisions and even though you don't believe in God "yet", :wink: I'll still hold the same respect for you as I would any Christian.

It was generous of you to hear me out. Take care and God bless. :D

 

[Novum]

I agree to the latter but not the former. The luck of the draw is too random. A person's lot in life has to mean something other than random chance. Otherwise mankind is just a bunch of accidents waiting to happen, LOL.

Then that's where we differ. I see the luck of the draw as random, unavoidable, and something that can be overcome, you see it as "too random" and impossible. ;)

It's been a pleasure chatting with you Novum. I respect your ability to make informed decisions and even though you don't believe in God "yet", I'll still hold the same respect for you as I would any Christian.

It was generous of you to hear me out. Take care and God bless.

And you. Take care!

 

[gingercat]

I would like to ask another question to you atheists.

Have you tried to find out if there is God? If you have, how?

 

[Novum]

I would like to ask another question to you atheists.

Have you tried to find out if there is God? If you have, how?

Sure have. On this board, in fact. I'll repost my experience here:

I have a devout Christian friend with whom I recently had a similar conversation. He claimed, just like you are here, that if I really wanted to speak with or know God, all I needed to do is ask. He told me to go into a room alone and pray to God, either aloud or in my head. He said that he was certain that God would respond to me and that I would become a believer.

But I objected. I asked him to consider the possibility, no matter how unlikely, that God would not appear to me when I asked him. What then?

He replied that, if I asked sincerely and with all my heart, there would be no doubt that God would appear to me.

Again, I objected. Why? I said that, in the event that God did not appear to me, my friend would just accuse me of not being sincere enough. No matter how hard I tried, if I were to fail then my friend would have an instant escape hatch - blame me for not being sincere!

So, I told him that I thought he was setting me up to fail. No matter how sincere I was or how hard I tried, it would instantly and completely be my fault for not being sincere. He dismissed my objection and repeated his certainty that God would surely appear to me.

So, I did it anyway. I went alone into my bedroom and prayed as hard as I could, silently and aloud. I waited 5 minutes, and after nothing happened, I tried again - both silently and aloud. Nothing.

I reported back to my friend what had happened. Just as I predicted, he railed at me and accused me of being insincere and not trying hard at all. In the end, I was right - he was setting me up to fail.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Novum, what were you expecting to happen after having prayed that didn't?

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

Have you taken initiative to find God, instead of following sonmeone's suggestions?

It seems you have already decided that there is no God.

I don't mean to disrespect you but you are too young to make such huge decision.

 

[Novum]

Novum, what were you expecting to happen after having prayed that didn't?

I have no idea. Something out of Hollywood maybe, like a lightning bolt, or gravity being reversed in my room? ;)

Or maybe something more subtle, like my hair color changing, or the little cut on my leg I got yesterday healing itself, or just somehow perceiving the world in a new way? I really didn't know what to expect, so I tried to be extra-observant for the rest of the day. I couldn't detect any differences.

Novum,

Have you taken initiative to find God, instead of following sonmeone's suggestions?

See, I just have no idea what kind of initiative to take - and that's why I've been asking people. Do you have any suggestions?

It seems you have already decided that there is no God.

No. That's strong atheism, and I am not a strong atheist.

 

[gingercat]

See, I just have no idea what kind of initiative to take - and that's why I've been asking people. Do you have any suggestions?

Yes I do. :angel:

If you are really serious, I have super good one. This is a real chllenge, are your sure you are up to it?

 

[Novum]

Yes I do. :angel:

If you are really serious, I have super good one. This is a real chllenge, are your sure you are up to it?

Err, sure, I suppose. No harm in trying ;)

 

[gingercat]

This is sure thing that you will be in love Jesus. If you don't want that to happen, you should not try. do you know what I mean?

 

[Novum]

This is sure thing that you will be in love Jesus. If you don't want that to happen, you should not try. do you know what I mean?

Why does it matter what I want? If your method proves Jesus to be real, then I'll be convinced regardless what I think.

 

[gingercat]

I just want to make sure that if you really want to know the truth, and not just avoiding God.

 

[Novum]

I just want to make sure that if you really want to know the truth, and not just avoiding God.

I cannot avoid that which I do not believe exists. ;)