Attention Athiest and non-Christians

[DivineNames]

Re: children

the "holy ghost" is real to us, its not just some fairy tail we like to believe in. i could see the points of your arguements if we were just going by words writen in a book but thats not the case. we have experianced Him in our lives.

Even if Christians do have a genuine experience of God that doesn't necessarily mean that the Bible God exists. I will quote something I read on the BBC religion forums-

"I know what you mean in terms of the joy of fellowship with God. I used to be a born again Christian and had a real and genuine experience of fellowship with God. Since then i have left Christianity and express my spiritual fellowship in a completely different manner - indeed one in which the fundie community cast as diabolic. The joy is still there - indeed if anything its even stronger than before.

This is the trouble with all the fundamentalist fanaticisms we see in various religions around the world that is causing so much trouble at the moment. Your spiritual experience of God, while quite genuine, is interpreted as a legitimation of the rigid religious interpretation framework in which you first approached it. When this framework tells you that only you have access to the truth we get fanaticism..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/F22 ... ead=802414

 

[reznwerks]

Re: children

[

you got
"your truth" vs. "our self delusion"
since neither can be disproved scientifacly, check it out.

I've tried to respond several time to your post question by question but apparantly the this website still has some glitches. To make a long drawnout reply is only wasting time. Chech this site out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml

 

[Novum]

Re: children

lets do it like this.........

you got
"your truth" vs. "our self delusion"
since neither can be disproved scientifacly, check it out.

"your truth"
1. no hope all through your life.
2. when you die you stop existing.
3. you go through your whole life with no hope, not knowing why your here and where your going, putting up with the oopsie that life brings, and in the end is was all for nothing anyway because now you dont exist and never did.

"our self delusion"
1. you have hope, a reason to live.
2. when you die you go to a place where there is no sorrow for eternity.
3. you go through our whole life, with hope in Christ, and know its all worth something, seeing and knowing why your here and where you are going. truely knowing love peace and hope, and in the end you get to live eternaly with our Savior and without sorrow for eternity where you will be rewarded for what you have done here in His name.

See, I find this interesting because I think you have these backwards; I would argue for exactly the opposite. I've posted this elsewhere, but I can give a brief recap.

As an atheist, I know that any lives I negatively impact will not be redeemed in an afterlife, therefore I must do my best to live morally and ethically. This life has infinite value for me because it is the only one I'll ever get.

But as a Christian, any lives I negatively impact will be redeemed in an afterlife; I have no real motivation to live morally and ethically except to ensure that I get into the afterlife of my choice. This life has zero value for me because the 80 or 90 years I get on earth is NOTHING next to an eternity of afterlife.

---------

Now, jive, I think you're getting the wrong idea if you view my presence here as "savior bashing". You are the only person I've come across on these forums who views my posts in this manner; everyone else has recognized that I merely seek to learn more about Christianity through discussion and debate. It does not matter to me if you are Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindi, or Zoroastrian. What I do care about, though, is learning why you think the way you do. And to that end, I think I'm learning a great deal.

 

[gingercat]

Re: children

What I do care about, though, is learning why you think the way you do. And to that end, I think I'm learning a great deal.

Novum, and other non-believers.

Most of you are still very young. I am not. You are my children's ages. I have been non-believer and thought like you did until recently (7years ago). I have read many, many secular how-to books to be an intellectual parent and person. I thought I could be happy and satisfied without anyone's help. I am not brilliant like most of you but I am a diligent person. I realized I have been just arrogant and stubborn and fooling myself.

Since I converted to Jesus' way, everything started to work out for me and for my family. I could never achieve family peace and hamony; we were getting worse and worse as the time went by.

I have been evangelyzing about Jesus because I don't want you to repeat the same mistakes my family and I made. I want you to have this peace and confidence; no matter what kind of predicaments, we can handle with His help.

This does not sound very intellectual and eloquent but comes from bottom of my heart.

thank you for hearing me out.

 

[Novum]

Re: children

Since I converted to Jesus' way, everything started to work out for me and for my family. I could never achieve family peace and hamony; we were getting worse and worse as the time went by.

I have been evangelyzing about Jesus because I don't want you to repeat the same mistakes my family and I made. I want you to have this peace and confidence; no matter what kind of predicaments, we can handle with His help.

This does not sound very intellectual and eloquent but comes from bottom of my heart.

thank you for hearing me out.

My life hasn't been perfect or easy either. I'm happy that turning to Jesus has worked out for you and made your life better. I really am. But I just want to convey that I'm getting by just fine as I am now. If Jesus is what brought your family together, then that's fine - but it's just not the case that he's needed to bring every family together. Look at all the happy muslim, hindu, atheist, and other non-Christian families.

 

[gingercat]

Re: children

Look at all the happy muslim, hindu, atheist, and other non-Christian families.

I never hear their happy testimonies, Have you? I cannot imagine killing is the ultimate goal to be happy.

 

[Novum]

Re: children

Look at all the happy muslim, hindu, atheist, and other non-Christian families.

I never hear their happy testimonies, Have you? I cannot imagine killing is the ultimate goal to be happy.

Don't start stereotyping. You're smarter than that. There are many hundreds of muslims and hindus at my university; there are many thousands and thousands more all across the US. None enjoy killing.

Who are you to tell other people whether or not they are happy?

 

[gingercat]

Re: children

Who are you to tell other people whether or not they are happy?

I have been living long enough to tell that. I can guess your age too, early 20sh?

 

[Novum]

Re: children

Who are you to tell other people whether or not they are happy?

I have been living long enough to tell that. I can guess your age too, early 20sh?

I have mentioned many times that I'm still in university, including once in the post immediately before this one. That's hardly impressive. :roll:

Do you take back your stereotypes about muslims and hindus?

You maintain, however, that you can judge others and determine whether or not they are happy. Your arrogance is deafening.

 

[gingercat]

Re: children

I have mentioned many times that I'm still in university, including once in the post immediately before this one. That's hardly impressive. :roll:



You maintain, however, that you can judge others and determine whether or not they are happy. Your arrogance is deafening.

Here you go again focussing away from the topic. This is your best tactics.

 

[Novum]

Re: children

I have mentioned many times that I'm still in university, including once in the post immediately before this one. That's hardly impressive. :roll:

Oh darn, you found my secret. :

You maintain, however, that you can judge others and determine whether or not they are happy. Your arrogance is deafening.

Here you go again focussing away from the topic. This is your best tactics.

You have just directly falsified a quote from me. I can't believe it.

I'm done with you; you've sunken to the level of blatant lying before this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself. Good day.

 

[gingercat]

Re: children

You have just directly falsified a quote from me. I can't believe it.

Novum,

Suite yourself, I get impression that you are not really seeking God or trying to find anything. I am just playing along when you start make poor excuses. You guys are giving impression of just playing here.

I have giving my best shut of my faith!!!

 

[Relic]

.


Psalm 1:1-4
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

.

 

[jive]

Re: children

the "holy ghost" is real to us, its not just some fairy tail we like to believe in. i could see the points of your arguements if we were just going by words writen in a book but thats not the case. we have experianced Him in our lives.

Even if Christians do have a genuine experience of God that doesn't necessarily mean that the Bible God exists. I will quote something I read on the BBC religion forums-

"I know what you mean in terms of the joy of fellowship with God. I used to be a born again Christian and had a real and genuine experience of fellowship with God. Since then i have left Christianity and express my spiritual fellowship in a completely different manner - indeed one in which the fundie community cast as diabolic. The joy is still there - indeed if anything its even stronger than before.

This is the trouble with all the fundamentalist fanaticisms we see in various religions around the world that is causing so much trouble at the moment. Your spiritual experience of God, while quite genuine, is interpreted as a legitimation of the rigid religious interpretation framework in which you first approached it. When this framework tells you that only you have access to the truth we get fanaticism..."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/F22 ... ead=802414

your missing something, i wasnt born again by just a god. i didnt call on or believe in some god out there, i called on the name of Jesus, and my hope isnt in just some god out there somewhere, it is in Christ Jesus, the man whom the bible talks about, the man that was nailed to a cross and died for our sins.

im not a fundaminalist fanatic and "religion" anoys the hell outta me. and your right, that crap does cause trouble and confusion. and my spiritual experiance of god is not a "legitimation of the rigid religious interpritation" what ever that means. i didnt have any religious interpretations of anything when i was born again. do you mean knowing about Jesus and what he did on the cross as religious interpetation?

if there is no Jesus, then we when people call on him and not just any god, why do they experiance him? surly a god that knows Jesus isnt real wouldnt interact with you if called on an imaganry person and not him would he?

 

[jive]

Re: children

lets do it like this.........

you got
"your truth" vs. "our self delusion"
since neither can be disproved scientifacly, check it out.

"your truth"
1. no hope all through your life.
2. when you die you stop existing.
3. you go through your whole life with no hope, not knowing why your here and where your going, putting up with the oopsie that life brings, and in the end is was all for nothing anyway because now you dont exist and never did.

"our self delusion"
1. you have hope, a reason to live.
2. when you die you go to a place where there is no sorrow for eternity.
3. you go through our whole life, with hope in Christ, and know its all worth something, seeing and knowing why your here and where you are going. truely knowing love peace and hope, and in the end you get to live eternaly with our Savior and without sorrow for eternity where you will be rewarded for what you have done here in His name.

See, I find this interesting because I think you have these backwards; I would argue for exactly the opposite. I've posted this elsewhere, but I can give a brief recap.

As an atheist, I know that any lives I negatively impact will not be redeemed in an afterlife, therefore I must do my best to live morally and ethically. This life has infinite value for me because it is the only one I'll ever get.

But as a Christian, any lives I negatively impact will be redeemed in an afterlife; I have no real motivation to live morally and ethically except to ensure that I get into the afterlife of my choice. This life has zero value for me because the 80 or 90 years I get on earth is NOTHING next to an eternity of afterlife.

---------

Now, jive, I think you're getting the wrong idea if you view my presence here as "savior bashing". You are the only person I've come across on these forums who views my posts in this manner; everyone else has recognized that I merely seek to learn more about Christianity through discussion and debate. It does not matter to me if you are Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindi, or Zoroastrian. What I do care about, though, is learning why you think the way you do. And to that end, I think I'm learning a great deal.

no no no i didnt mean it like it sounds i guess and that realy wasnt aimed at you, that was mostly for rez and whoever els on here that says were self delusional and that Jesus and our experiance with him is just in our imagination. i like the fact there are some at least interested. i didnt mean it like he was blatently bashing our savior, but nicely saying Jesus ant real, and were a bunch of looney tunes. is taking away from Him and in a since "bashing" him. i just couldnt think of another word for it.

and im interested in learning why you think the way you do too. but i dont understand when you say that you see those first post are backwards or arguee the opposite. i dont know if elaberating would be getting of topic or not, if it is just pm me.
later

 

[Novum]

Re: children

and im interested in learning why you think the way you do too. but i dont understand when you say that you see those first post are backwards or arguee the opposite.

You said that:

1. Atheistic life is without value and everything the atheist does is for nothing.

2. Christian life has value and morality.

I am arguing that the opposite is true - that, given the presence of an afterlife in the Christian worldview, it is the Christian's life that is without value and it is the Christian who has a dubious morality. That's what I was trying to get across; did that clarify my position a bit?

 

[jive]

Re: children

and im interested in learning why you think the way you do too. but i dont understand when you say that you see those first post are backwards or arguee the opposite.

You said that:

1. Atheistic life is without value and everything the atheist does is for nothing.

2. Christian life has value and morality.

I am arguing that the opposite is true - that, given the presence of an afterlife in the Christian worldview, it is the Christian's life that is without value and it is the Christian who has a dubious morality. That's what I was trying to get across; did that clarify my position a bit?

um.......no : whats dubious morality?
how do you get the "christian" life has no value?

on your #1 point, how is it valuable and for something, if you cease to exist when you die. it will be like you never were. like before you were born. its all pointless. i know your life has value. but the before sentance wipes that away when you die.

on your #2 point, you said i said that "christians" have morality,i didnt realy say that did i? i think athiests have morals too. just wanted to clarify that. the main point is we have hope and yall or "athiests" dont.

i was mainly speaking of the "athiest" as i know it. who say there is no God.
and say that were looney because we believe there is. i know you have stated your open to the option of possiblity.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: children

[

no no no i didnt mean it like it sounds i guess and that realy wasnt aimed at you, that was mostly for rez and whoever els on here that says were self delusional and that Jesus and our experiance with him is just in our imagination.
--------------------
Well unless you can show evidence to your claim then what else is it? I have shown in the link I provided how that is possible. Here it is again.You shouldn't take the term "self delusional" as an insult. I really believe that you believe what you feel is real but there are a host of other explanations for the phenomenon. The fear of your end is a powerful motivator to seek an out.The idea that we are here for a purpose and life has a special meaning is an idea brought forth by man. It originates in fear of the unknown.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml

i like the fact there are some at least interested. i didnt mean it like he was blatently bashing our savior, but nicely saying Jesus ant real, and were a bunch of looney tunes. is taking away from Him and in a since "bashing" him. i just couldnt think of another word for it.
--------------------
I never said Christians were "looney tunes". If you have been here longer you would know that my opinion is one of you have absolutely no "first hand" evidence of the existance of Jesus. By that I mean there is not one shred of evidence written at the time of his existance by anyone, anywhere outside of the bible and the bible is not a textbook.You believe for one of two reasons: You were convinced too or you want too. The evidence is not there to justify the belief. No one outside the bible records the birth of Jesus, the slaughter of the innocents, Jesus trial, the miracles that supposedly took place etc. The four gospels even conflict as to what happened at the resurrection. If you took the time to look for the evidence you would find that mankind had quite a few "saviors" before Jesus and their life mirrorred his life. Why don't you compare Jesus with Buddha or Christianity with Hinduism for starters as there are more? Why don't you pm me for more info so you can make up your mind or show me where I am wrong? Whatever info I post can always be confirmed at your local library.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm

Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
"Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty--seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.)
At the conclusion of their fasts, they both wandered to a fig tree. (Hans Joachim Schoeps, An Intelligent Person's Guide to the Religions of Mankind (London, 1967), p. 167; Matthew 21:18--19.) "

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyar ... hrist.html
.

 

[gingercat]

Resn,

I don't have any resorce but I have read many times that many scientists start out with to proofe there is not God and end up became His followers.

You seem very resorceful; how about trying to find out about it?

If you are trully interested in finding out the truth, you should read all mateial about the Bible.

I am just hoping you are not playing game here for your own sake.

 

[Novum]

Resn,

I don't have any resorce

That's all you needed to say, ginger. Next?